Season 2 Episode 6: Author of forthcoming The Introvert’s Edge on Why He Wanted a Ghostwriter

Derek: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to another episode of The Business Book Show. Today, I’ve got Matthew on with us to talk about well, I know this sounds a little self-serving but to talk about his experience which was I got to be along for the ride. I was Matthew’s ghost writer for a book that is going to be coming out from Amacom, January of 2018. But I don’t want you to think that this interview is self-serving or that it’s blatant self-promotion. I wanted to bring Matthew on the show on this period because we got to walk the journey from the very beginning until the sweet happy ending whenever he’s about to have his book come to fruition in just a few months. So who’s Matthew, well I mean, who is the Matthew. He’s an incredible entrepreneur, he’s got an amazing story, he’s from Australia, had a built of 5 different businesses from zero to a million dollar. He came to the United States to pursue some more business opportunities over here. And just a couple of months here, he seemed to know absolutely everybody. He created, I got to kind of watch from the sidelines, as he took the often small business festival from an idea to a one of the nation’s, let’s see, Inc. named it the Top 5 Entrepreneurship Events in the Nation to attend. And it went from just an idea to being that, in just 3 months. He was able to secure sponsors like Go Daddy and Microsoft. He’s just … He’s amazing and his mission in life now is to help other entrepreneurs, small business owner, the creative, anybody who have that fiery entrepreneurial passion to take their ideas, to take their credibility, to take their expertise and to turn it into something … that’s amazing. And he has an awesome way of encapsulating all of that rate rapid growth. He is the rapid growth guy. He helps people go from almost nothing, using some very smart ideas and approaching it from, I mean, I know this from personal experience, very a coached in point of view, to help them go from struggling to just an incredible success; so all of that to say welcome to the show, Matt.

Matthew: Mate, I’m so happy to be here and thank you for the unreal and hotshot introduction. I’m very excited to finally be on your show.

Derek: Well, it’s me who has the honor but we can continue the love fest.

Matthew: (laughing)

Derek: Yeah, email and then text. Because we’ve got a … What I’ve shared that quote with you before I forgot who said it but they said that they had a friendship that was built on business which is better than a business built on a friendship.

Matthew: I’d certainly agree. Especially considering most, a lot of businesses that are built and started on friendship don’t go too well, unfortunately. And what I think that’s a lot to do with the fact that they start off with poor messaging and end up in poor sale and I definitely feel that, this is a nice direction to go instead.

Derek: Yeah, well enough about us. Let’s talk about you; let’s talk about your journey. So really Matthew, I’m mostly just gonna give you the floor and let you talk about your journey to go from having an idea for a book to now going to see it on to noble shows here in just a few months.

Matthew: Well, definitely. And I think that one of the interesting things about this interview and Derek, you’re very much about making this not a self-promotional interview but something it is really is talked about the path that I followed. Because I, while you are very much involved in that process, I still had to make a lot of the decisions like any walk along the way. And one of the I think most important factors when people are going about making the decision to, whether you’re going to self-published or not self-published and in fact to have a proper foundation for understanding how I made these choices is to understand to the where I came from. So growing up and made high school at a reading speed of a 6th grader. I was horribly introverted and I’ve no idea what I want to do with my life. I kind of found my way into sales and complete happens there if I taught myself on how to sell on YouTube. Next thing I knew, I was the number 1 salesperson in a larger sales and marketing company in the Southern Hemisphere. I was very successful in my businesses in Australia and when I moved to United States, I had this mission that I wanted to help other small businesses and I was looking for avenues and ways to do that. One of those, was I ended up creating a blog and within a space of 9 months, I became an internationally award-winning blogger. It wasn’t that I couldn’t write, it was painful for me to do so. And to write a 1500-word blog post could take me several days. I was very comfortable with the fact that, for a blog post, I needed to almost see the person that didn’t tell them the things … that people didn’t wanna hear. About the fact that, yes, it’s great you’ve got a strong functional skill but adding a strong functional skill doesn’t matter if you can’t sell yourself, if you can’t market yourself, you’re not gonna be in business very long. And my whole focus was around, making sure that, everybody understood that it wasn’t their fault that they didn’t pay attention to these things but unless they did they would never gonna be able to build a business around them, their family, and their life. It was always down to either turn out to be a job or something that can turn back to be in a job. And that was always the focus to everything that I’ve wrote. And making the decision to write a book was really a decision that, what I realized is so many people struggled with getting a .. (unintelligible) So many people sell, so they have to do this uncomfortable thing called sales and I just didn’t find it that way and I knew that there was something in me that I needed to be able to express, and I was looking for the right way to expressing it. So for me going through that decision, I started down the journey of writing a book myself and what I found was there were a couple of issues there. Firstly, I didn’t know whether to go self-published or publish myself that I just … why I didn’t just go through the process of writing a book. Now, I started to write a book and what I realized is while my voice was very very well, the way I wrote. I was very much a persuasive article former and while that was great for a blog post to extend that into a 200-page book. You can’t be assertive for that long. People undergo delusion to that kind of assertive nature to that period time. It needed to be more conversational, it needed to be more relaxed. And while that was me, in my personal life when I have to do something like writing or public speaking I found myself getting very very serious and I needed to find a different way. That’s the time, that you and I started having a dialog, Derek, about whether or not there would be an option for us to collaborate. Now, at this stage, I can do one of two things, I can talk to, I can address why I made the decision to go to ghost writing directional. We can go into why I made the decision to go to publishing models first, do you have a preference?

Derek: Yeah, let’s talk about going the publishing route because that’s … a fundamental decision. It changes how you approach the project, it changes a lot of the decisions that you are going to start making, so let’s yeah, let’s go in that direction.

Matthew: When I was making a decision on going the publisher route or the self-publish route. There are a lot of reasons for why you should go both, so I think the answer in which way you should go and I was looking for the right answer for where all authors should publish their book whether they go through a mainstream publisher or whether they self-publish. And the truth in that matter is, it has nothing to do with the mainstream answer. It has everything to do with the answer that’s best for you. What I mean by that, is self-published books have all this ex-additional flexibility; you can pick the name of your book, you can pick the cover of your book, you can decide all the words, you publish exactly what you want, you can choose whether you want a colored book, a black and white book, whether you want images, whether you don’t want them. Exactly how it’s published, the way it was distributed, whether you want a soft cover book or a hard cover book or whether it’s just gonna be an e-book. You get to make all those decisions and when you sell a book, well, you get a lot more money for it. So with this self-published book, if you’re trying to make a decision whether you should go the self-published book. Well, firstly, if you think you’re going to make money out of book, you should probably understand that’s not the case. The focus of the book, well, it’s true and everybody that has that mindset of I’m going to get rich out of the book, well, we can talk about that in a second. A book is a marketing tool and if you don’t have a plan on using it as a marketing tool then we’re talking about the wrong of business book authors here. The goal of the book is to leverage yourself in a way that you couldn’t do normally through podcasts, through blogs, through TV, and through the use of stage presentations. And allow yourself to share some valuable content that leads to an outcome of which we discussed that is, the requirement for now having the book, you have some phase to the interview but to me, it was if you’re wanting to control every single fact. And I can tell you, I’m a little bit of a control freak myself. So I did go the publishing route and I’ll tell you why I did that in a second, but giving up all that control is terrifying to me. That said, self-publishing route offers the ability to profit here, of the book, it offers you the ability to have to take control but it didn’t offer me the one thing that I was looking for, which was the credibility that a mainstream publisher, actually, published my book. Now for me, that was kind of a big deal for a couple of different reasons. The fact that I had a New York publisher; offered a book deal to a person that had a reading speed of a 6th grader in high school. That was a huge thing to me, so from an emotional perspective, that was a big deal. And the second thing was, that we got a couple of different book authors. I went with one of the publishers, I went with the publisher that I thought would give me the most flexibility and the most control over my book. Now, did they still wanna change the name of my book. Yes, they did. We fought about it, well I should say we had some great discussion with that.

Derek: (laughing)

Matthew: We went and then they met my wife, the sad part was, we had a choice of two words at the front and that didn’t get my wife. It’s give and take. And that’s the problem, with going the publishing route. But what you gonna remember with the publishing, the non-self-published route is that you’re giving up some self-control but you’re giving up control to some professionals. Now, in some cases, they’re right because they understand the industry. In other times, they’re not right because they don’t understand the book as well as you do. So it becomes a dialog, it’s gonna answer them and you’ve gonna bring them back to a team. How can the going the mainstream, that road … gives you access to a bookstore, it gives you access to a team of people that are actually going to place you in bookstores. Now, who’s the person that mostly still going to be promoting your book, it’s gonna be you. They’re not expecting you to go out and chase your own endorsement, they’re still gonna expect you to put together all the marketing paraphernalia to make their life easier. But the advantages of mainstream publisher is credibility, so if you wanna get on to a lot of stages if you want to use that as a reason for why you’re paid higher than a lot of other coaches and consultants out there. And if you wanna do it just because you want somebody else to help with distribution and get into places you normally couldn’t. The mainstream publisher may be the right answer to you. If you wanna have more control over the distribution and have it all on your own shoulders then you could definitely go to self-publishing route. I think there are good reasons to doing both and I’ve often asked myself the question, especially after we went through the book proposal, I mean the book proposal, it’s a nightmare to say it, its’ basically a book in itself where you provide chapters of the book. You have to provide the marketing plan, the autobios. It took us a huge amount of time to get that done and you feel the entire time that you’re not being productive because the book isn’t getting written. This is just the plan to the book, that’s basically like presenting a business plan to a bank; you’ve got to make sure that all your I’s are dotted and all your T’s are crossed. So going through that process is a huge endeavor for anyone who wants to go the mainstream publishing route. Remember, you’re not writing one book you’re actually writing two.

Derek: It’s a great  point because if our publisher and an agent, they’re incurring a lot of risks because they’re investing their time and resources and money and salaries and wages in to a product that they have to create before they can sell, before they even know really how I mean, they have an idea of how well it’s gonna be received in the market because we do a lot of homework and now we try to use their best judgment. But really, it’s still quite a risk and so for them to justify taking that risk they want to mitigate it as much as possible. And the way to do that is for them to see that the author is fully invested in, in the book that there is a viable market, that they author has a great marketing plan, that the author has a great idea for the book, the author is able to write well, the author is able to deliver on .. the according to project timeline, that the author is willing to work with them to change the things that they think needs to be changed and in order to make it as attractive to the market as possible. It’s a big undertaking and that’s why a proposal it’s a … it takes a lot of work to do right.

Matthew: Well, I think one of the biggest things there is, it’s just that, I’d like to say, it’s a qualification process that means I went to the process to gain my extraordinary talent green card ..  and I had to put railings of paperwork together to get it done. It took me, I’m gonna say a hundred hours of worth of, actually doing activities and putting it together to allow myself to get its extraordinary talent green card. And I joke with my family that they weren’t doing it, they weren’t probably even going to read it. All that they were going to do is to go, did he do the work required to be allowed to stay in this country because if he really did that, he must really wanna be here. And I think the same thing about …

Derek: (laughing)

Matthew:  I think the same thing with the publisher, the publisher’s saying okay we need to prove that a.) they can write, because if they don’t write then they’re going to get horrible reviews on the book. But the writing process is not the only thing that’s required, you’ve got to know how to market, you’ve got to know, you’ve got to have connections that will endorse the book, you’ve got to have people that will help you promote, you’ve got to have your own ways you can promote, you’ve got to have your own social media. There are thousands of books, I mean I have the statistics of a day that the average book sells around 200 copies and worse than that I need to fill up those generally bought by the author and get them to their friends and family. Now, do you think that a mainstream publishing company, they have a high salary New York editor that is working with you for several months, almost a year sometimes, to help you get it together, you’ve got sales people, you’ve got distribution, you’ve got printing cost and you know what, then why don’t they just take this chance on me. They’re not gonna take a chance on you unless they know that they can pay all those bills. They’re a business, too. And I did a panel at a small business festival recently where I sat down with somebody from the Austin Business Journal, the Community Impact Newspaper, somebody from the, one of the head people KLBJ Radio, and one of the head people of, oh sorry, the CEO of KS, the local KSAN Radio; it’s an NBC Affiliate. And the summary became for the Austin Business Journal and Community Impact, their customer was the reader. So, if you didn’t have a great idea that was going to be exciting for the reader, they wouldn’t publish, with KSAN and KLBJ; they said unless you are paying us. They’re our customers too but we’re happy for you to pay us for the opportunity to become news worthy. When you’re talking about a book they need to prove that you know the marketing, that it’s a story worth telling, and that the writing is good. And if you can’t do all of that in a book proposal and I’m talking about one of these book proposals; a fifty, seventy, a hundred words long, I’m sorry a hundred pages long with a chapter or two and you’re gonna have a content. Now, it is a rite of passage, I mean … or by seconds, book proposal for my second book which I was lucky enough to have the publisher come back to me and say hey we’d love to talk to you about book 2 and book 3 in the series, would you be interested in putting together a proposal. And I responded with, oh I’ll look and put together a whole proposal for you but I’ll put together a couple of page summary on what that would look like and they were comfortable with that. You only really have to do it once, if you do it well. But you do need to go through that rite of passage and very similar to going to the bank, you’ve got to have 2 years worth of financials, if you don’t you instead are going to a group of angel investors, and those angel investors are gonna require a really well-structured debt financial modeling. It can take just as much time to do, that is why I need the money as it takes to actually do the project itself. So, it’s a balancing act. If you just wanna get a book out there today, then go to self-publishing route. It’s simple and it’s easy. For me, I was earning enough money anyway. I didn’t need the book to be all medalled more or less, it would have been anyway. But I wanted to make sure the distribution was there, I did it to getting mixed there in my credibility so I went a different direction, but yes, it’s a lot of work and people need to be mindful of how much work it actually is, and secondly include the writing, that’s just to get through the front door.

Derek: Well, let’s talk about, exactly that’s just for the proposal. Let’s talk about the book itself, I mean what was surprising for you, what was the change from the idea that you had and then at you worked you went on this journey of authored a book. What were the things that you wish you would have known or the things that would’ve surprised you or if you could go back and give yourself some advice or anything along those lines. What was it like in real life to be an author, creating a book?

Matthew: Well, I think that I can answer that question in a couple of different ways but one of the first things was that, I thought my book was not going to change and in the time it took us to write the book. I’ve gone from helping people, just with their sales to talking about creating a really strong unified, making you and separate you from everybody else. And discovering a need to go there by client. So we had to go change a lot on the last chapters to angled to what I now do which it works amazingly but it took toll. So I wish it … having a finalized plan at the start. You need to know and I think they’re used of it, better than, I’m in a horribly in this point of view but in .. you talk about the fact that, creativity is inherently messy and you have to be okay with that. So for me, working through and seeing half chapters and knowing that things were changing and I started going to see, out the fact, that my business was going in a different direction. While we were still writing a book of what I thought I wanted to write at the start; so all of this all came together at the end and that it was so easy to get it to come together at the end. So I think that a lot of the angst comes with not knowing the stepping stone process on how to actually write a book. I think that you know reading your book on, how to do that consulting with somebody that is a ghost writer, having some coaching about how to, if you’re writing yourself, have some coaching on how to actually write the book yourself and structure the format because the way you write a blog post or the way I wrote a blog post from the start at the top and I write it through and every paragraph is protected before I move to the next one. That was my process. If I hadn’t done that in a book, I would never have got past chapter 2, may be chapter 3 and it wouldn’t be .. I wouldn’t have had the logical process in the string that went right across the whole book. So, I think having an understanding that things are going to change at the writing process is going to be very different to how I wrote a blog post for a business proposal. The second .. the next thing that I actually had is many stories in me, that I needed to actually write a book. I think a lot of people tend to and I know I would have done it, and I had started them that process when my book was starting to become a persuasive article but written like a text book where I’m teaching the strategies which is horrible because I teach people how to step outside their functional skill and not be all in the detail that you sure you could be successful in their own businesses, in sales, in speaking from stage, in presenting but it’s funny when you do something that’s outside your comfort zone and tend to gravitate to becoming a lecturer. And I think,  one of the most important things in any book is to use stories, and yet we gravitate to using a matter of fact and detail and models. I think that’s because we don’t think we have all the stories. We need to be able to get the message across. So knowing that if you could replace a functional element with a story or they embedded the functional element, that is definitely an advantage. I think the third thing for me is really starting with the end in mind. I think when I started writing the book I wrote the book because I felt like it was a book that I wanted to write. And then as you start to get hung up way through or as …  with your process or when I was writing it myself. It’s like how I actually, well, how am I going to get people to want to actually reach out to me. The end in mind is what do you want to sell at the end of this, do you wanna sell an online product, do you wanna sell a coaching product, do you wanna be a page feature? Because if that’s what you want, really seeing stories of people that you’ve worked with or people that worked your academy, or people that had you speak on stage, why’d you write a book because you want them by the end of it, not to think, oh wow, that book was really great but wow I really want Matt is to come and speak or I really want Matt to work with me one on one. Because the book is not designed to give them all the answers, as a matter of fact, no book should be. And I think what I originally put together, the book proposal, it should definitely talk about the .. what are the agent process before we head off this interview but my delivery agent said Matt, this is two books, you’re trying to be too much to all people. You need to just shrink it down and make it very very simple, in bite-size chunks because the book’s job is not … it gives them everything they need. The book is ..  its job is to inspire and motivate people to wanna continue to the next step of the process. I mean, you look at the Rich Dad, Poor Dad, as a great example. His first book was just to open you up to the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth, all using his programs or buying his games. So, if you don’t have an end in mind, you need to really think about what that end is because remember, you’re not going to make money out of the book. If you get 200 people to read this book, you are hoping that 10 of those are gonna work with you one on one, buy your online service, hire you to speak because that’s getting yourself a picture towards marketing the book which will then get you the next sets of clients. Well, the fourth thing that I would say, this is not something I had a problem with but that’s because I do this for a living but what I find is a lot of people that reject me, oh and then, they’re interested in writing a book, they’ll say, oh gee, you know, I’m interested in writing a book. Do you have any suggestions, I know you’re in the process of writing a book, a piece of book you got for a long time. And I’d say sure, what is it that you do, and they give me this 10 paragraph explanation of what they do, that they also do this, and they do this, and they’ll explain that all their nature of what their functional skill is. The biggest problem with people writing their own book is they don’t first realize that the marketing is more important than the book itself because if they don’t have a strong unified message that separates them from everybody else, you introduced me as the rapid growth guy, that’s intriguing. It makes people want to know more. Your branding is the authority architect that allows people to go; oh, what exactly is that. You’re .. And because it’s not just something. If you just said you were a ghost writer, people knows exactly what that is. If I said I was a business coach, people know exactly what that is. I have a client that’s a videographer who have just said, if he just said that. He’d get no client but he called himself the narrative strategist and people are oh what exactly is that. You’ve also got to find it, you need to understand what are the tips of those called context. You need people to understand, to want to work with you, to get them to the point with they know enough, to know why paying you, what you’re worth is definitely worth the money. So to anyone writing a book still say, okay I’m gonna write the book and then I’m gonna focus on the marketing, no, the book is the marketing. So unless you have the strong unified message that separates you from everyone else, unless you have a really detailed explanation of your packaging and of your product, whether that be a service-based product or whether it be a physical widget, then you shouldn’t be writing a book yet, because you can’t have an end in mind unless you got your pocket goal to life. And you can’t get people interested unless you have a strong unified message to detract them to the book.

Derek:  What I love about your approach, Matthew, is that there are, I’ve read some notes that I’m sure that you have to wear as they, they are so fearful, it’s the term to reveal anything that I did. A trade secret or their secret psalms or how they do this or how they do that whereas with you, you within the book, you have come the other way, you give so much information. And even scaled down from two books to just one book. You give so much information that … it demonstrates the expertise and the experience and the insights that you have on the topic itself. So there are some books that are just long infomercials and the person is trying to sell but they’re doing a bad job because they don’t actually care about the reader, they just want somebody to buy the book so that they can sell them something else. And what I love about the Introvert’s Edge is that … in teaching them what they need to know you are subtly demonstrating that you are the expert, as they are going to work with anybody, for any of this day, they need to think that you do, you’re the person that they should work with. So they read the book and they feel like that they’ve gotten some real value that they’re inspired and motivated versus somebody who takes that to the only other and he takes it to an extreme to write … I won’t call their name but I’m thinking of a book in mind where it’s a fairly thick book and it’s really just one long sales letter. And that just disappoints the reader because they’ve; they feel like that they should have gotten more value out of there instead of, of insisting that this is one long infomercial. Your book does that beautiful balance of, of making sure that it meets your needs as a business author who has an incredibly powerful marketing tool but also meets the expectation of the reader. That they’re learning from an expert who can really help them solve this particular problem.

Matthew: Well, Derek, I had a good ghostwriter so it made it easy but I think that one thing that most people miss is that they go in one and another. They go to the position of, I need to make an infomercial because I have to get people to buy things or I have to give all of my strategies. The structure of the strategy is the way in the book. The goal of a book is to try to inspire. The goal of the book is to leave details about how they can do it themselves but seed that you also do it for people. Because what happens is .. a book’s job is supposed to be to qualify the reader. So if the reader is a DIY kind of person, he’s totally going to buy how to do it yourself with the strategies in the book. Apply some of those strategies that he reads in a book,  to get an outcome and then maybe wanting to work with you one on one or he may just want to read the book to make sure you’ve got enough credibility to work with them. Now, if you tell them that you had the credibility to work with them one on one as an infomercial within the book, wow, if you gave this much value, I … none but sold to me when I give him 12 dollars or 20 dollars for the book, how much value do you gonna give me when I’m giving him a couple of thousand or tens of thousands of dollars to work with him one on one, probably it’s very little. On the flip side, if you give him all the theory, they’re gonna say, alright, well I’m gonna go away and I’m gonna start applying all those strategies and then once I finished applying those, I’m gonna come back to this person. Of course, they’re never gonna apply all of the strategy, so they never come back to you. I had a … it’s very similar to public speaking, I had a client of mine that used to get up and speak and used to give away 45 minutes worth of sales training and it was an amazing sales training session. But then they won’t ever book for him because they were …  they always use to come up to him and then go I’m so glad you’re giving all this information, I’m gonna go away apply it all, I’m gonna get back, I’m gonna apply it all to that my businesses as soon as that thing results from that I’m gonna come and work with you. On the sub, with all, being to those events when somebody just gets up and set 45 minutes hour pitch. We can’t run out of the door fast enough. The balance is in between and the balance is a story. So, what I do when I get up and speak in within is I give 3 strong and powerful stories that gives value, and teaching them how they apply them on models to these specific circumstances that I use in the example, the stories from the presentation. So, by telling them stories that’s inside my presentation. I’m teaching them, most people walk out of my speaking events go and to get so much value. I don’t actually give them that much, I just gave them enough to see that I know what I’m talking about and gave them some things to think about that start them on a trajectory of self-discovery. But the difference is people were self-qualified. The people that are really interested in what I’m talking about will either come to me and after the free thing that I suggest that everybody does and I say just give me a card and I’ll email it to you which is a free template then, they do it themselves or they’ll come to me afterwards. And when I send them that email, they’ll book in a phone call to speak with me then they wanna work with me. The goal of the presentation or the goal of the book is for people to pre-qualify themselves but see the value in what you do through the stories that you provide. It’s really that simple, you got to come to a center-point compromise.

Derek: That was .. This is one of the topics that’s near and dear to my heart as I have to practically write a business book, but instead of spending the another two hours which we usually could, talking about how to do that, let’s switch quickly to talking about the journey of a literary. Do you want to talk about some of the lessons you learned there.

Matthew: Definitely, the first thing that struck me is that literary agents don’t tend to have amazing websites. They don’t tend to be looking to you, you actually have to be seeking them out, so the  … I’m gonna throw the literary agents at this like any other business operated that way, but if you’re going the publishing route you need to understand that the publishing route is actually quite old-school. They wanna see your book proposal to even be interested in it. They tend to like introductions so if you know somebody that already has used a literary agent find out through them, who they are and then after the introduction. Now, you’ll find a lot of authors are quite darted and detective over their literary agent because when they recommend somebody they want them to be taken seriously. So, here’s the thing, if you person you ask isn’t taking you seriously enough to do an introduction. They’ll take it personally, know that you’ve probably haven’t done all the work required yet. Now, I’ve been introduced to several literary agents and just because your book proposal doesn’t … she wanted and matter of fact I had one the publisher, I have one literary agent and again I won’t mention the name but literally had a visual reaction to the concept of my book, hated the idea, but it would never work if he’s not want to work with me. Now, as you can imagine for a guy that really was still uncomfortable about the fact that he was going to be perceived as an author because he had a reading speed of a sixth grader in like high school, I could’ve taken that quite personal. Expect to get rejected by literary agents because again, they make their money only in fruition when the book sells and on the events you receive. So they treat it like a business. They have this … it’s actually really quite difficult for them because they are … they’ll always expect from what I’ve seen unapproachable but they only make money when some- they set and … somebody approaching them and turn them into a book deal that then ends up in a book. The problem they have is that they’re overwhelmed with really bad book proposals, they’re overwhelmed with people that think they have an idea. I have in my business, I have people that come to me every week telling me they have a great business opportunity for me they’d love to see me invest it. Well, of course, I don’t because they either want my money or they want my marketing assistance. But when I ask them to send me the deck, they generally don’t have one or they send me this ridiculous thing that takes you two seconds to read and it shows they have an attention span of about 15 minutes. So, a literary agent expectation is that you’ve come with the goods that you think through the marketing plan that you’ve sieve through the books. But that doesn’t mean that every one of them is going to be excited to work with you. You really need to reach out for this literary agents with your best foot forward and expect to get said no, cause you don’t need everybody to agree to it, you just need one. Now, introductions are helpful but the next thing you know is they do expect called introductions but when they do get a call introduction, their expectation is that you follow the process that they prescribed you follow. Now, Derek, you did a load of my book outreach and I think Cindy, our literary agent is actually somebody that you sell. I had several introductions and we interview those and then we interviewed a couple of people that came from what we called outreach and we ended up with Cindy but … And I think Cindy’s been on your podcast as well. So the thing is that you have it again, everybody … It becomes, it’s like doing business, what happens is you need to put your best foot forward and you’re gonna expect certain people to say no either cause your proposal wasn’t good enough or your first interview didn’t good go well enough. Then once you get through that interview, you say and they say yes, now you’ve got to work for your people that have said yes. Now you need to pick the right literary agent for you. So it becomes a please buy for me, please buy for me, please buy for me, oh now, I’m not sure if I wanna sell to you ‘cause I only have one item. Now, you don’t do a Dutch .. that’s, in this process, you don’t do a Dutch auction to get the most money out of it. You’re looking for the best long term partner because if you may want a second book or a third book and you wanna make sure that the person has your best interest at heart, isn’t just going to be working with you and a thousand other authors. For me, if you know I was chaste that a copy the … literary agent accepted to work with me, then we have the option of choice and I don’t have to make the right choice for me. It was just as the same as when we picked the publisher. At first, it’s about getting offers and then later down the track it’s about making the right choice.

Derek: You know Matthew with in that I mean, it really it came down for you, it came down to a really, two choices. One of them was a larger house with more resources probably bigger marketing budget and a lot of the things that come with the much larger houses but you’ve felt that you would just be, just another author at their author’s table versus Amacom which was compared to this huge house Amacom was a little bit smaller and not .. It didn’t have quite the story in history. But the team there was so excited about your book, they bought in to the vision, they bought in to the potential and the possibility, they were incredible to work with and so you ultimately based the choice to go with the publisher that had the approach of being a collaborative approach is the words I’m trying to sum for them versus something that you could have maybe bragged a little bit more with that particular name but they wouldn’t have been, it wouldn’t have been as awesome as the, as Amacom’s did.

Matthew: Well, I think that one of the things that everybody listening should really focus on or understand is that when they’re publishing a book their literary agent is their agent and the publisher is their business partner and they’re actually getting a business partner when they fix it. So when you take on a business partner you just don’t do that literally, you make a decision based on what you feel that is the best fit for you. Now, you said a lot of people picked their friends. The good news is, well actually now, I have friends of mine that picked friends with literary agents as brand publishers and again that doesn’t have a lot of the time go to well. On the flip side, I made the decision to go with a literary agent that I thought was the right fit for me. And then went with the publisher, that’s perceived my idea and me, as a big deal so I could be in theory, a big fish in their small pond.

Derek: Yeah.

Matthew: And use the full weight of that agency as opposed to when I called, though I can be you called us you’re just a little fish. Now, I knew my brand was going to grow and yet while I picked this publisher for the first book and I believe that I’ve … And very well if you focus on, I’m probably gonna stay to the same publisher, the same literary agent for the longest period of time. That doesn’t mean you are committed to your second book, to your third book, and your fourth book, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go into the deal with a life, a lifelong partnership in mind because why would you want to go through all of those at twice you spent all that time, them training you, you training them to understand what working with each other looks like and feel like. It’s, you don’t wanna go through all of that again so make the right decision for you. It is a little bit hard because at the start you’re just after an offer, any offer, and then sometimes you get an offer that is not the right offer for you, but no other offer is there and you got to work out and you say no, do you press pause, do you buy time? Well, here is the thing with our book, every minute is like a week and a half. If they’re not gonna give you the second thought and toll a way quite a when the counter pops up and says did that deal’s closed. As a matter of fact, it might be 3 or 4 weeks, the publishing world still leads in this old school time table. That’s why it takes so long to publish a book even more as these days you can self-publish. I could if I could write a book in a week and I’ve them out on Amazon by next week. So take the time to interview your publisher, for me it was about getting the deal, once I had some offers on the table. I’m the one who speaks to my literary agent and makes sure that she asked all the top question so that she interviewed all those people. Now, I didn’t get the option to speak to them but she interviewed them hard for me and they gave me the details I needed to make the right selection for me. Also you can see literary agents know that they are on your side because they only get paid when you sell the book so they wanna make sure, yes getting, the advantage nice but they really make their money off the second book and the third book and the sales of the books, so if you didn’t have a bad relationship with your publisher and you only sell 200 books or so. Then that makes them look bad and they don’t get paid for. So your literary agent is really on your page, so the goal really should be to get the best literary agent possible for you and then use them, cast them to work and get to that publisher for you. But again always move in with the idea of paying, these just people that are going to be on your team for life. So don’t go into it without expectation, if you’re looking for a life partner.

Derek: Matthew, I hate to stop us because I feel that we’ve just, we just scratched the surface on all of the different fronts which probably means that I may snag you into another interview to talk about all of your further in depths on the, I mean,  we’ve just done an entire interview just one of these topics, but I appreciate you being so candid and honest, and helpful about authors who are in the front end of this because even for people who’ve been incredibly successful in other areas of business, like you say publishing is like kind of a world on to itself and it’s different.  So, thank you for sharing your journey and the prize, twists, and turns and ups and downs that you experienced.

Matthew: Well, you’re very welcome, I mean to me, I’ve always gone into everything with everything that I’ve got and sometimes when you go into something that’s completely new. You make mistakes that you would never have made in your own business. And the publishing world is so different once you’ve learned the rules of the game, it’s actually surprisingly easy. I think that’s why there’s so many things that would have been published the first time but go back and do it many many times. I can say, but it’s the first step, it was the first time they land the moon and then after that, they almost savored it every week. It’s a big park, it is definitely worth it and I’m now so glad. It’s funny like even not, not even having the book published yet it opened so many doors. Just some of the endorsement I’ve got from people I didn’t even know beforehand. It makes such a difference, it’s totally worth doing it and it is just a lot of work and you need to be ready for that and then you need to learn the game because the sooner you learn the game of publishing, the game of literary agents, the game of being an author then you’ve mastered just like you do anything else you do in your career.

Derek: Yeah, that’s a great advice and  it’s a nice way to look at  the game because if you go in it like there’s so many times that the rejection or some of the feedback especially the particular agent that you were talking about, I mean with a book you’re putting your heart and soul out there. So for people to come back and just … and then it had shown like they’re kind of, tearing your soul apart a little bit. But it’s a game and you got to look at it as sometimes you win a round, sometimes you lose a round but you keep winning until you learn how to master the game.

Matthew: Well, that’s another …  you know when people say there’s no such thing as rejection, there’s only feedback. Those people have obviously never been rejected, so being rejected is.

Derek: True.

Matthew: Right, I mean, to me it’s not, we haven’t sold out but the book is called the Introvert’s Edge. I’m an introvert, you’re an introvert selling when you feel when you get rejected, it’s painful, selling when you don’t know the structure on how to make a sale is uncomfortable. And when you’re trying to put together a book, you kind of,  if you don’t know the process of writing a book, you try to sell a book but you also know that whether you can do it so you’re feeling unauthentic and that then makes the whole sales person feel uncomfortable and you take rejection much harder. So the important thing is, are that you actually were in the process a book so you know you can deliver it if you get a publisher or when you get a publisher but then also understanding that language, it’s not, oh I’ve got an idea, I’m gonna try it out with a cute little edge and see what happens. Because my book, I’m so happy with the book that we put together that if I hadn’t gone with that mind such starting out then I probably would never got it written and I definitely wouldn’t have a literary agent to represent me and definitely not a publisher.

Derek: Speaking of, Matt. You have a setup where for the people who and anybody listening, I absolutely recommend getting Matthew’s book not because I think it’s a great book, it is, but because of the incredibly sightful, well if you have a whole interview just on talking about how awesome the book is to helping people like a well like me who don’t come from a sales background who was uncomfortable  with the idea of sales in general, and triggering out a way to make it, to make it natural to figure out how  to actually use my introversion as an edge in business success. So, Matthew, the book is being published January of 2018, but in the meantime, don’t you have something or just that where people can grab the first 2 chapters.

Matthew: Yeah, definitely. So you can get the first chapter of the book from theintrovertsedge.com. If you just go to that website, there’ll be a place at the top where you could put in your email address and we’ll email you the first chapter of the book. And actually, for those people listening as well, one of the other things that I think would be really beneficial for people is when I was going through the process of coming up with this book, it was I wanted to help people understand sales right now. Then I wanted to help people understand rapid growth, the three concepts to rapid growth, but it was coming up with the message that I’m the rapid growth guy and then became it, for me which was an introverted service provider. So for a lot of people, they really need to work out what the unified message is and then what their niche of wooing the buy clients is before they even start writing a book and then, especially if they’re putting together a book proposal because that exactly is what the publisher is looking for. So what I would suggest as well, if you go to matthewpollard.com/growth, I’ve got a really cool 5-step process that teaches you exactly, how it actually runs you to the process of your unique and unified message that exciting, spice people to want to know more and then your niche of willing to buy clients, so that can be really helpful to the audience as well.

Derek: Thank you, Matthew. That’s generous of you. Matthew, I just wished that we had the time to go into all of this because it’s such a journey to go from, thinking about how to write a book to now having this what’s gonna be in Barnes and Nobles’ bookshelves January of 2018. It’s the ups and the downs, the twists and the turns, it’s a journey. So, thank you for sharing,  just a slice of it with us today. Really appreciate your time.

Matthew: Well, welcome mate, think I’ve been honored to be in your show. It’s been a lot of fun.

Derek: Good. We’ll do it again.