Season 1 Episode 5: Going Down Memory Lane with Business Book Pioneer Jack Covert
Derek: Ladies and gentlemen welcome back to Behind the Business Book. I have with me in the business book industry although he won’t admit it the man is a legend. We’ve got Jack Covert on the other side of the phone. Between him and Tom Peters I think if it hadn’t been for both of them I think that the business book industry would look very different than it does today.
Twenty or thirty years ago Jack … I’ll let him tell his part of the story but long story short, he found at 800-CEO-READ he became an advocate, a champion of business books especially finding the gems that were out there and bringing them to other people’s attention. Helping people find the value that there was in business books and then the company. 800-CEO-READ read has done a tremendous job in being a leader in this space and bringing great standards to the industry.
Jack is now retired or at least semi-retired so he’s going to tell us that he is no longer in the middle of things, but I think that he’s probably got a lot more insight. He is probably I’m sure forgotten more than most people in the business book industry will ever know. He also co-authored with Todd Sattersen, The 100 Best Business Books of all Time. If I can add on a personal note he is one my professional heroes. Jack, thank you so much for coming on today.
Jack: Wow. Okay, yes you’re welcome. You’re welcome. That’s a nice intro but you should have added Lee Iacocca because it was Peters and Iacocca that showed main stream publishers that these weird little business books could sell.
Derek: Really? I didn’t know, I mean I’ve got Iacocca right here on the shelf. It’s one of my favorite business memories but …
Jack: It was a crazy bestseller over Christmas of that year whichever it was, 83? Maybe 83, 84? In Search of Excellence in paperback started getting traction too. Peters was out doing his stick and he was … That raised the eyebrows on a lot of mainstream New York Publishers that are all literature folks that these business books could sell some serious numbers if they were done right.
Derek: I had never done the timeline, I didn’t realize that Iacocca came out the same time that In Search of Excellence did.
Jack: Very close. I think Iacocca came out the year that In Search of Excellence had been in paperback. When it came out in paperback it came out in Spring of whatever year that was and it was I think Iacocca came out in October or November of that year. They both were nuts.
Derek: In just that let’s see so what is that? Just 32, 33 years? I mean it’s gone from business books being kind of on the low margins as you say to now being it’s millions and millions …
Derek: Copies sold. Yeah. It’s a huge part of publishing. What’s the … Can you trace that history for us? What was the impetus? Was it just the success of those books or was it the success of those books and the market realizing that there was some real value to be had in there? Was it people looking for more advice from business books? What was the catalyst?
Jack: I think the 80’s had a lot to do with it, I mean the 70’s were pretty grim decade and Reagan came in and all the business people thought it was the light has been shown. Chrysler took the turnaround and Chrysler was a huge deal and Peters and Waterman wrote a really readable interesting book and Tom is a very compelling speaker and was out doing his thing. I think that had a lot to do with it. It was the time, it was a unique time in American economic business history and those two books came at just the right time. I’m sure there were other ones, but those are the two that I remember.
Derek: Yeah that reminds me of that quote, I can’t think of who it was but it said that “There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time is come.”
Jack: Told well, I mean that’s one of the things your listeners should know. Both of these books that we’re talking about and pretty much every business book that sells serious numbers is really well told. Just this dry economic treatises just don’t sell. But if you put a storyteller on it like Gladwell or Michael Lewis or somebody like that, they’re storytellers. That’s what makes things fly. The problem is most business book authors aren’t good writers. They’re idea people.
Derek: Yeah. I think too that so many of them take their cues or their writing examples from what they had to do in college and what they read in coming through the ranks. That story telling if they had any of those leanings that they were kind of trained out of that right? Because whenever you’re writing a paper for college or for your MBA you’re not supposed to be a story teller. You’re supposed to …
Derek: … emotion out of it.
Jack: That’s why Gladwell and Lewis are so unique because they are novelists almost, they’re satirists in the true sense of the word and they take thoughts and write really compelling articles on them
I think is how you pronounce his name, a New Yorker writer the doctor position was his latest book is on how the medical profession is not prepared for debt, doesn’t prepare the patient for debt. His stuff is just compelling as heck and it’s bestsellers. I think his last book is still on the list, if it’s not it just fell of and it’s been on for years.
Derek: I have completely missed that book. Do you remember the title of it?
Jack: I think if you go to newyorker.com and look up ATUL you will find … He’s a New Yorker writer and you will find his credentials there and then just do a search and you’ll find it.
Derek: Is that the guy who wrote that great book on lists?
Jack: On what?
Derek: On lists?
Derek: He wrote a book on …
Jack: Oh yes yes. Yes he did, yes he did. You’re right. That’s who he is.
Derek: Yeah yeah here it is. Let’s see complications better The Checklist Manifesto, that’s the one I’m thinking of. His latest, medicine, being more about, Medicine and What Matters in the End. I had missed that book. I’ll go put it on my list.
Jack: Yeah yeah it’s quite remarkable.
Derek: Tom … Excuse me I’m still thinking of Tom Peters. Going back to whenever Tom Peters and Lee Iacocca came out with their books. Jack do you mind giving a little bit of your background with Harry Schwartz and the Three Bookshelves that was in the back of the store and turning that into 800-CEO-READ? That kind of journey?
Jack: Well, it’s not simple. It was being in the right place at the right time. I got the job because my wife worked there.
All right so my wife got a job at Schwartz. I got to meet David. David at that time was a 50 something, he calls himself a red diaper baby. His father had the Harry W. Schwartz book shops. He was always a very progressive man and we hit it off and he saw something in me because his father, when he bought the business from his father in the early 70’s his father said, you need to sell business technical and computer books. Now David looked like an old hippie and I had relatively short hair and gray hair and kind of was fearless. He saw in me that possibility and we worked on it for probably 3 years until we started to get traction and it was basic one on one selling. The Grow a Marketing books by hanging flyers on windshield wipers, that sort of thing.
I was selling and preaching business books to locals and at that time there were corporate librarians. All the major corporations had a huge information section that the engineers would go to for data and history, sort of Wikipedia in the 80’s. I got to know these people and they were generally women and I got to know the women in the local area, Johnson controls and the Northwestern Mutual people. I built a little bit of a business there. Then I decided I wanted to get bigger and so we started a catalog in the late 80’s early 90’s and it was the Business Book Gazette. It turned into be a really nice little item, 2 or 3 a year, 4 color, 250,000 print and that gave us really nice growth.
Then Amazon came along and totally took that away. We floundered around in the late 90’s and started looking at who our real customer was and at that time we started getting relationships with authors because authors were having trouble getting their product, their books. I mean, they spent a lot of money have some of the right to book or they spend a lot of time writing the book and they’ve got this little window that they know they have and they need to make a pop during that time. Publishers many times would drop the ball in getting product because publishers are not made to send out 100 copies, they’re made to send out 5 skids.
We developed a service organization that was able to supply authors with their books. In the meantime we kept the marketing arm going which was the whole business book thing which continues to grow. We do in the books and we do all these information driven blogs that 800-CEO-Read does. We’re really a service organization now. We live in a huge warehouse with 3 loading docks and pallet tracks and so I mean that is 3 minute version of a 32 year life. There’s a lot of holes in that but those are the inflection points that I can remember at this advanced stage. It was you bump into Amazon coming and taking your entire catalog business and going, oh what are we going to do now? You look at what you got, you make some decision and go from there.
Does that all make sense?
Derek: Yeah no that’s like you say 30 years in just a couple of minutes. In that 30-year arc what are some of the huge changes that you’ve seen? I guess from a market standpoint, so what people used to want to see in business books and what the opportunities were. But also from an industry perspective, how the industry has changed to go from just a couple of best sellers to now the markets almost glutted I think that there is anywhere between 4,000 and 10,000 business titles released in an average year.
Jack: I think his number using BISAC and this was 7 years ago, book industry something which is by sack that is 10,000 titles published. This was a while ago. Now, your audience is not book sellers, your audience are authors correct and people who are thinking of becoming an author? What I can tell you that what I think I bring value to them with is how can they make their product known? What’s the best bang for the buck that they can get? That is the thing that is constantly changing. Back in the 80’s it was shelf space, it was phased out, it was Barnes and Noble 800-CEO-Read printer to store stuff, Windows, basic that old school marketing that’s been around since the probably 30’s.
Then technology came along and Amazon came along and barnesandnoble.com and walmart.com and all these places started coming on and it’s buggy whips versus Formula One cars. It’s that different.
Derek: Yeah it’s a good analogy.
Jack: Yeah I mean your authors have got a real tough road a hold because it’s so totally changed. Back when I started if a self-published was crap because it had gone through the editing process and no New York publisher, and they were almost all in New York would touch it so then they self-publish and then you just as the arbitrator of taste which you are when you’re in a book store, you just know it’s garbage.
It was pretty much consistently true that way. But now there’s just huge markets with Amazon and all the other off shoots that these people, authors can use to promote and sell their books. But it’s the same issue that the self-published author had and the author whose Kindle author on Amazon it’s the same issue. Who’s going to buy the book? How many books are you going to sell? Is the value of your time going to make you enough money that you’re not wasting your time? Because only people have friends and family that are going to buy the book, how are you going to promote the book? Are you a speaker? Are you a consultant? Are you a whatever? How many of those people are going to buy the book?
That’s what you want to do and it’s pretty darn simple. It’s the same thing in the 80’s as it is in the 20’s. It’s who’s going to buy the book?
Derek: I think the opportunity, at least the different challenge is that because there is so many more freelancers that creates space and there’s income spark and all of these other additional services. Any author, nobody can … Go ahead?
Jack: No go on, I’m agreeing with you.
Derek: Nobody can tell an author no, right? In the 20, 30 years ago it was like you say either if a traditional publisher didn’t pick you up then you had to go the self-publishing route and it looked like …
Jack: It was garbage.
Derek: Yeah it was awful. Today …
Jack: There was a huge out of pocket for the author too. Nowadays it’s significantly less across the board. The options are significantly more but the cost is significantly less.
Derek: Do you think that presents an opportunity for authors? Do you think that it makes it even more challenging or do you think that it’s just the same challenge just with a different face?
Jack: That’s a very good question because you can argue both sides. It makes it much easier because there’s very little barriers to get into it. But does that mean it’s better? I doubt that. It’s the quality of the point, the stories that are told and then the big problem an author nowadays has is how do you get any kind of connection? I mean 800 CEO Read we get pallets of books, single copies, double copies from people who are want us to promote or mention their book on our website. We’re just this podunk little place in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Think about the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, it’s marketing. How are you going to raise above the masses? The author.
It runs into the same problem that they had back in the day. The Reengineering to Corporation was Hammer and Champy wrote that book. Michael Hammer, Business Week, I think it was Business Week maybe it was Time Magazine had a picture, a cover on the new consultants saying it was there. People who had books but Michael Hammer’s book didn’t come out until like 6 weeks later and they had done a marketing campaign of sending the copy free to the Fortune 500 CEOs. In those days there was not a filter to keep those books from coming to the CEO because it was such a unique idea. The book took off.
Now it’s a combination of the fact that the book had a compelling argument, he was on the cover of Time magazine, he’d used this marketing idea to get to traction that way and because of that he got ink all over the place and the book became a national bestseller. If he didn’t try the Fortune 500 and did all the other ones would it have been successful? If the book had not a compelling message and done all the other would it have been successful? I think the message had a lot to do with it. Then the guy getting called out before the book came out didn’t hurt either. I mean, things work and things don’t. That would not work now because part of that 800 CEO Read service organization that we do the logistics that we do we’ve done that many times when an author has paid to have us do that. It doesn’t work, they’ve got filters. There’s now two or three levels from the mail room to the CEO that would call us out and it would end up in the corporate library or on somebody’s desk which isn’t going to buy the book anyway.
The only way that works is if you’ve got content within the organization, connections within the organization and you personalize a book to Joe Smith or Jane Smith. He or she gets the book because they know who you are.
Derek: That reminds me of The Purpose Driven Life by Pastor Rick Warren. He did something similar to that but he sent a copy of The Purpose Driven Life out to, I forgot how many thousand pastors for free. Then all of those pastors got up in their pulpits or in their circles of influence and touted how great the book was. Then that’s really how it took off and became, I don’t know how many millions of copies he sold.
That would not work now because it’s been done.
Jack: You have to come up with a new one
Derek: Yeah each of those silver bullets once it’s been fired, at least once a couple of people hear about this strategy and they start copying it that kills it. You know I’ve got plenty of authors who ask about marketing and that’s not my expertise, I’m a ghostwriter. But I wish that I had fool proof plan to give them but there’s not. Some of it’s luck, some of it’s ad hoc, some if it is time and determination and pouring in that energy in treating it like a product that has to be sold.
It’s not something that you’re going to write it and put it on your website or put it on amazon.com and it’s become a bestseller. It takes time and energy and effort just like it would if you had invented something, if you had written a piece of music, if you had created some art. It’s a product that you have to market and sell like any other entrepreneur.
Jack: That’s exactly right and that is no different than it was in ‘82 than it is in 2016. It’s exactly the same. The transportation that the ability to get the product into the customer hands has changed, you don’t have to buy a hard cover book, you don’t have to chop trees down, you can send it in a multitude of ways to your customer. But that customer is going to want to want it. That’s your job.
Derek: Speaking of great books, let’s take a sideways step Jack and let me ask you about the 100 Best Business Books of All Time. Why did you and Todd decide to take the effort to write the book? How many books did you all read and research and index before settling on those 100? That’s all the work that you did before you even wrote the book? Why do all of that work?
Jack: Todd wanted to write a book and I sort of got the name in the industry and he didn’t. I said, okay write a proposal and let’s see and I’ll send it to the people I know and let’s see how it goes. Well he wrote this proposal that made no sense to me and I said it made no sense and we sent it to, he sent it to somebody that I know. That person said this makes no sense. It was probably a year later Todd gave the proposal to Will Wiser who is Adrian the number 1 person at Portfolio in the division of Penguin.
Will got back to Todd said, this is really convoluted why don’t you just write a book called The 100 Best Business Books? Todd and I are 2 totally different kinds of people. I said, before we do that, let’s find out how much we agree. We both went into our separate offices and made a list. I had like 120 Todd had like 130 and the 88 of them were the same. We knew that we had a possibility to do that. Then we spent 52 weeks reading and reviewing 50 books. In the meantime we had this whole crew of people doing all the filler things that were in there, the side bars and the choose your own adventure aspect of it. We’re in our offices reading 400 pages and writing God knows how many words on them.
Then Sally, who was a woman who … By the way appropriate timing The 100 Best Business Books of all Time is coming out in a 3rd edition, 3rd revised edition in August. I think Todd and Sally, hang on I’m looking it up, took five books out and put five new books in. That’s coming out it’ll be in paperback and it’s coming out in August.
Derek: I can’t wait.
Jack: Yeah yeah. I mean we’ve kind of kept it not under wraps but it’s just Sally and Todd put it together because I said I’m done with that. When I die I’m going to be an author of The 100 Best Business Books doing a second book would be a waste of my time. They did it which is great. More power to them. But it’s coming out in late July early August.
Then we just sat down and did it and it was an appropriate time in the life of the company in that we had the freedom to do this, we had the staff to do the grunt work that needs to be done on a book like that. Your listeners should go to the library at least and look at that book because it is really a beautifully packaged book because we know what a good book looks like, we created a good book. We gave it to the publishers like that. It turned out really well and it sold really well to the point where Adrian cornered me at a party eighteen months ago and said you need to do something with this. I gave him that whole line of I’m done, I’m retired, when I die I’ll be an author not a two-time author it doesn’t matter. He went to Todd and Todd bought into it which is fine.
That’s what we got. That book is coming.
Derek: It is a beautiful book and yeah I would say this and in fact I’ve said this all over the Internet and elsewhere. In fact, I even quoted you and Todd in my book, The Business Book Bible, I quoted you all in there. It is, it’s a great book. I’ve got a hardcover of the first edition that came out in 2009 was it?
Jack: Yeah, it was perfect timing. We had a party in New York to launch a book, it was published I think in January or February of that year. We went to Business Week, Todd who was a business book guy at Business Week at that time, he no longer is. We’re standing there in the lobby and the scroll in the bottom of the television is talking about the number of people that were laid off at Caterpillar because it was the beginning of the 08/09 crash.
Derek: Yeah the great recession.
Jack: Yeah the world turned around on that day, not that day but that year. I think oh it’s a great time to bring out a book about business. But we did and it worked.
Derek: Well you know no matter … I was talking to I don’t know, a prospective client or somebody maybe a year ago and they were saying that they wanted to write a book. They knew all the business benefits that could come with writing especially a leadership book. But they said you know all of the ideas have been taken, everything that’s been said that needs to be said has been said. There’s nothing new that I can bring to the table.
On the one hand I’m sure that’s true, there’s only so many times that you can say you need to be innovative, you need to treat your people right, you need to be a good person, you need to stay on top of your financials, you need to … All the different ways that you can say here’s how to have success in business.
But at the same time, I argued that it’s the same thing in any other kind of literary genre. The detective story, there’s only so many ways that you can tell who done it but still we turn out thousands of new titles a year. Same thing in science fiction and fantasy, same thing in romance novels or thrillers. But yet every author finds some new way to spin it or some new way to present it or to translate something that was said thirty years ago and make it relevant today.
Jack: It’s done is the story.
Derek: Whereas this author was saying that it’s all been done, I think that that’s been true for probably a few hundred years if not a few millennial and yet we still find new ways to present it, new ways to spin it and more importantly there’s no one that has had the unique combination of experiences that this particular author has had. He’s grown up in a different decade, he’s grown up in a different generation, he’s gone through a different series of events than somebody else and there’s value in that. I encourage every potential author I come across. I guess the way I see it is that every book should be written, it’s just not every book that should be published.
Jack: Yeah, yeah. I mean how many notes are there on a piano? Yet we’ve continued … I mean there’s a finite number of notes on a piano yet we continue to make beautiful music with those finite notes. There’s so many ideas in the world but presenting them harmonically might present a different way of looking at something.
Derek: Yeah that’s a nice analogy. I haven’t quite applied that one to business books. I’ve read there’s only 26 letters in the alphabet but that seems I don’t know kind of …
Derek: Yeah but you’re right there’s only so many notes and yet we continue to write new songs every day.
Jack: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I agree.
Derek: Well Jack let me ask you the 3 standard questions that I like to ask everybody. For you I know this is going to be quite difficult, but what’s one of your favorite business books of all time? Besides the 100 …
Jack: It depends on what I’m looking for. I mean, John Updike Rabbit series is some of the greatest literature about a business person. Watching Rabbit Angstrum grow and … But there’s all sorts of other things going on in the stories. If I’m having issues with … I mean I think Marshall Goldsmith is one of the great writers. I think … yeah and Peters is one of the great presenters. Picking the best business book of all time I will pick Chasing Daylight by the guy CEO of Who’s Allen who discovered he had brain cancer and it’s a story of his last 6 months of his life, he died at like 43. It’s just an incredibly heartwarming touching story about death and how a person deals with death. Now the guy was a CEO so I classified it as business book but not very many people would. But that was a very moving book and it came to me at just that point in my life, it depends on the point in your life, it depends on what you’re looking for. There is no answer to that. How’s that for a top off?
Derek: First of all, I’ve never come across Chasing Daylight so I will also put that on the list.
Derek: Well it’s been a few years since I read the 100 Best so apparently I’m going to have to go back and read that again.
Jack: Yup, yup. Yeah that was one of the 12 that both of us didn’t agree on. That we had to negotiate.
Derek: All right I’ll trade you Chasing Daylight…
Jack: That’s how it worked. That’s how it works. That’s how it worked I mean a fly on the wall in those conversations would have been quite something.
Derek: Yeah. You bring up a neat point, one that I’m not sure that we’ve got time to explore but it’s the question of what is a business book? You know if you go into a Barnes and Noble the business books section is in one place but then you’ve got self-help and personal development on the other side of the store. Yet there are plenty of books in one that could easily fit into the other. Then there are plenty of books that are on economic development or economic history or business history that I would easily say is a business book but like you said other people would classify it as not. Even just saying business books it’s not really cut and dry as to what is and what isn’t.
Jack: My back in the days when I cared about something like that, which was thirty years ago, twenty-five years ago, I classified if I could sell it a business book. Now, I’m serious. Iacocca was a biography, Iacocca was not a business book but …
Derek: That’s true.
Jack: I was able to sell it so I claimed it. Now, obviously romance … Well no fiction, I mean Zap and the Gold their fiction.
Jack: Yeah but they’re business fiction. It’s nowadays it’s what you’re looking for as a consumer drives what is a business book I think, which is a real stretch.
Derek: No I think it’s true, I think that we are in a consumer driven market.
Derek: I argue that it’s always been.
Derek: You were in consumer marketing before it was a thing.
Jack: I’m a merchant man, that’s what I do. I sell shit, okay? That’s what all my employees know. The kids that I’ve been able to … They’ve been with me forever that are the core of 800-CEO-Read, they … we sell stuff. That’s what we do. We just happen to focus on business books because business books are something that we know and business book authors are generally people that buy books by the box. I like to sell books by the box, not sell books one at a time. That’s …
Derek: Rather sell one box at a time than one book at a time.
Jack: Yeah, I mean that way the one stores I tell us in the early days have sent back there because I came into this thing from a record store. I owned a record store for twelve years and …
Jack: I didn’t know anything about … Yeah I didn’t know anything about books, but they’re the same thing because books are a product that you have to sell that was created that you had no control of the creation. The same way with music, I mean if Bruce Springsteen does an album of Gregorian chants it’s going to be a slightly different than Born in USA. If Tom Peters writes a poetry book, you know what I’m saying? You have no control over what you’re selling.
Jack: I was standing there looking at a customer who spent probably two hours and brought a copy of The 100 Best Places … No, no it was What Color is Your Parachute? Then that lunch I saw a guy in a suit and tie come in and grab five copies of In Search of Excellence in paper and walk to the front counter. I thought ah ha, that’s my customer because that’s the way you want to sell things. That’s kind of where we’ve gone, I mean I’ve been following that customer.
Derek: That all makes sense. Yeah. I never knew that you did records and just came straight into …
Jack: Maybe …
Jack: Music is my passion. I sell books.
Derek: You sell books to buy the music?
Jack: Yeah, no I … Home 28 GB iPhone that is getting pretty full. Yeah I mean, but it’s the reason why 800-CEO-READ is growing like it’s growing, the reason why 800-CEO-READ is successful is because we’ve got people that care. We’re a customer service business that has people that care and know how to get around, you can’t do that. When we got books into…….. on Martin Luther King’s birthday and no union was working then and the Jabba Center is a totally union shop. We rolled the books into that place on Martin Luther King’s birthday. That’s the kind of stuff we do. That’s what makes 800-CEO-READ special and that’s why authors come back to us in three or four years when they bring out their third or fourth or fifth book. It’s not about my brilliance or anybody else’s brilliance, it’s about we’re a service organization which is sad for your authors because there’s not going to be a lot of insight that I can give them that will make their life easier but that’s what 800-CEO-READ is. That’s what we became.
Derek: I think that you probably have had some of that success because like you constantly say I’ve read it I don’t know how many times that you call yourself a merchant, having that focus and not coming from maybe a publishing background or a literary background but coming from a retailing background where it’s if you don’t make a sale and you know don’t pay the bills.
Jack: Yeah I mean it’s the metaphor I use is I’ve got this push cart and I’ve got to have more money in my pocket at the end of the day than I had when I started. If I do that, life is good. We’ve been able to be very successful doing that simple stuff. It’s very simple things.
Derek: Yeah well you all are apparently do the simple things rather well. You know, what was it said that luck favors the prepared mind?
Jack: Yeah and it’s the people. It’s the people, it’s Meg and Roy and Dillon and Sally and the people … I’ve got kids who started as kids now in homes and are married and have kids. It’s a real cool thing. Those guys are really smart, they’re way smarter than I am. But I was I think my skill if there is any was hiring the right people and keeping the right people.
Derek: Well Jack I just looked at the clock and realized that I’ve taken more of your time than I originally asked for. But thank you so much for being so forthcoming, for being so straightforward about not just the business but your experience in it, what you’ve learned, what you feel like you’ve taken away from it and what you feel like you still have to learn. Just having the experience and being able to have you walk us down memory lane if nothing else has been I know it’s been worth my time. I really appreciate you.
Jack: That’s very nice of you. It’s been fun going back. Yeah, I hope you’re selling stuff. Mr. or Ms. Author you’re selling stuff. Who’s going to buy what you’re selling? How are you going to sell it? That’s the correction in a nutshell, that’s it. That’s it all together. It’s very simple. If you can write garbage and have people buy it you’re a success. If you can write War and Peace and nobody buys it you’re a failure. It’s the selling the product that’s important. It ain’t literature folks.
Derek: Right. Right. Although, like you said you have a great story and being a great writer. That’s an important part of it. You have to sell a product but it has to be a product worth buying.
Jack: Yeah exactly. It’s hard to do that. I mean, if it was easy to do that there would be an awful lot …
Derek: Everybody would do it. Jack, thank you again for your time I really appreciate it.
Jack: You’re welcome, you’re welcome. Good luck everybody.