Season 2 Episode 7: The Most Experienced Ghostwriter in History: Claudia Suzanne

Derek: Good morning ladies and gentlemen welcome to another episode of The Business Book Show and it is my personal honor to be interviewing my ghostwriting mentor, so before I was ghostwriting I was copywriting and then I stumbled into some ghostwriting gigs but it wasn’t until Claudia took me under her wing; I took her then private ghostwriting certification course that I’ve really learned how to be a professional ghostwriter. So since that time, Claudia has taken her ghostwriting course and actually it’s been folded into California State University at Long Beach’s Continue Education Program it’s become an actual professional certification recognized by the state of California. It’s the first of its kind; Claudia had put together the world’s first comforts on ghostwriting. She wrote the world’s first textbook on ghostwriting. She just recently released the 5th edition of Businesses of Books, her book about the overview of the publishing industry really suit to nuts. Whenever it comes to ghostwriting she really is the first and last word. I could go on and on about the things that she, she got I don’t know hundred and fifty, two hundred some on invisible credits to her name not, that’s not even counting how many manuscripts she’s line edited, but she spends all of her time or just about all of her time these days coaching or working with other ghostwriters to launch literary careers as she says. So all of that to say thank you for coming on the show today Claudia and welcome.

Claudia:  Oh thank you very much, Derek, that was such a really nice thing that you said. I am delighted to be here, and I am delighted to be talking to your audience for I think this is book writers, because business books you know are part of the backbone of the book industry that’s never a dirt, we always need more business books they can be used in so many different ways, they can- you can apply so many different bisect subjects to things to them and you can open up so many markets for them, they’re, you can even get if you position your book correctly you can even get a bank loan to finance your business book because it’s a marketing tool. I’ve been saying this for decades the best marketing tool is a business book, it really is, and so I love talking to business writers, I love talking to people who are putting to get a business book. And I love helping them understand the new landscape of the business world; I know you are on top of the business world far more than I am because you specialize in business books, I did not specialize in them but I do, I do my fair share, in fact two of my clients right now are aspiring business book writers well one is a well-published business book writer and I’m sure that if we went to opening together it’s going to do extremely well as usual and the other author is somebody who’s just speaking his toll into the business book waters and so he’s kind of wiggling with less the fact that it’s wet in there, it’s wet in those waters.

Derek: (laughing) You mentioned the changing landscape, I mean you’ve been in this industry, please forgive me if this is you know bating you a little bit but you’ve been in the industry for 30 some years, I mean you’ve seen it radically changed, book publishing general and business books specifically, can you, you know in just whatever term you want, can you talk about how much it’s changed and how different that landscape looks today than it did even just two years ago.

Claudia: Oh how about even just four years ago, okay it’s changed enormously. Let’s have a little bit of a history thing here and I’ll try not to stammer too much which I have now from, I do in it a regular basis, but used to be loads of many decades ago that if somebody has an idea for a book, they put together proposals. They work on that proposal for you know weeks, months, years and they follow literary agents who believe in them and that literary agent would shop that proposal for weeks, months, and years and then would find a publisher and they would all huddle together they’re higher, the agents, and the publisher and they would make a wonderful book. And when you want to buy the novel or you wanted all these books, or you went to Dalton’s Books, or you went to whatever place that you want to bring your books a little bookshop around the corner you know that the book you were buying, the physical book that you were buying was a well-constructed easy to read very informative book especially a business books cause that’s what’s it is all about. And the business books are all about helping people do a better you know, build their businesses well and we all took them to heart, fast forward to after December 2009 when the print industry kind of imploded on the surface due to technology and globalization of the world and society and how businesses blah blah blah blah blah, okay now we have an enormous number of people in this is for themselves. The number of consultant business consultants has exploded from handfuls to tens of power it’s just in America alone. Just in America alone and they travel all over the world from America and to America and there are probably hundreds of thousands of business consultants out there trying to help people build their business or get the business started, grow their business from a start of to something you know that’s the fashion good to be a viable grow up to of the million dollar mark, grow up to the five million dollar mark, grow up to taking it public mark, grow up from being an excellent growing you know, exploding wonderful business. To be world class as in world-class, global class, international blah blah, we have hundreds and thousands, tens of thousands of business consultants out there helping millions and millions of small, medium, large, and some global businesses to better continuous process if I hear those three words together one more time I might take a shit to myself, it’s just its constant, everything has to get better and better and better because the world now runs more on business than on anything else. Now there are people who will say it’s always around business and that’s probably true but it wasn’t as obvious and it wasn’t as global because we didn’t have instant communication everywhere but today we not only have businesses that are you know international or business that are national and are trying to become international or even businesses that are regional that are trying to become national or businesses that are local and trying to become regional and become national and become international blah blah you get the idea. We have entrepreneurs we have the solopreneurs, we have all of that and we have all of those consultants and every single solitary one needs a book. I hate to say this but it’s true they all have a book, every speaker; every business speaker needs a book, why? Because it has to be you could send out brochures and you can just hand out your business cards but it doesn’t, it doesn’t choose of now. And it used to be that you could have a website, and the website would get you off on businesses country on the internet but know that most not so much anymore. Yes, you have to have a website but you have to have a face of the business and the face of the business betters the odds to back up where have books. I wish it wasn’t that way but it is that way so why pretend that it isn’t and even more that face needs to realize that they’re not that person is not just talking to everybody else that they’ve been in business with for all these decades that this, that face as to realize that they’re now talking to people in their teens, teenager, teenagers and their early twenties not people aren’t waiting so they finish their degree to go out and start their businesses. People are studying their businesses when they’re 12 and 15 years old by the time they head 17 or 18 they’re already a millionaire. The millennials need business help; they need it as much as if not, more than the people who have been in business for the last 5, 10, or 15, or 20 more years. Okay but they don’t want it in the same language and they don’t want it in the same presentation as the traditional business book here let me tell you all about what you need to know, I have this reputation fact and I have that reputation fact and I have this proof and that proof and what have  you. No, they’ve been on the internet, teen grows up on computers, they’ve grown up on the internet, they do not know a time when their world was not, what’s that focused on a hundred and forty characters okay?

Derek: (laughing)

Claudia: It communicates by hundred forty characters and less but we put a man on the white house on a hundred forty characters

Derek: (laughing)

Claudia: We put this (unintelligible) on a hundred and forty characters. We have divided this country and we are dividing the world, we are polarizing people on a hundred and forty characters, so those business people, those young millennials, those people who are coming up to take over the world which is not an amazing thing because the younger generation has always come up and taken over the world since the beginning of time, that’s how life marches us. This new younger generation though has a totally different mindset and they speak a different language, and they want it shorter, and they want it complete, and they wanna get the information, and they want you to tell them a story. They want it entertaining, and they want it in internet language, they don’t want it sharky they like the whole thing because they want to build their business. They got this great idea, they start their back tom, oh my god, mom, and dad don’t have to bring it but you know coming up to the college won’t fit them anymore because they can pay off on the debt’s mortgage and by the way they’re gonna need to buy mom and dad a Rolls Royce and they could’ve buy mom and dad anything they want and when they start dating, well they’ll have money to go to the pub because they’re becoming millionaires very very young because they have the ideas. And businesses books need to entrust that because those people those young people who are starting these industries, who are starting these incredible new businesses and they have no idea what the hell they’re doing they know what they know which by the way has always been the case of business. And it’s always been the case that the person with the incredible idea has to bring in other people. That’s why there are so many business consultants out there. Because for instance, I know my business, I know ghostwriting you don’t want to be around me when I’m trying to do my own taxes. I will never do my own taxes again because I don’t know that part of the business, I am not a numbers person I’m a words person okay? And when it comes to hiring employees, when it comes to dealing with government regulations, and if I was manufacturing anything and I have this deal with o shot and all those other acronyms because a few acronyms that are out there, and the regulations, and every new law that gets passed, and everything who has changed and changed and changed and changed in which factors could you know how many factors do I have to have for my employees or what have you. All of this stuff is important and that seventeen-year old who’s now a millionaire and wants to keep growing his business or her business has no idea what do with it. They’re either gonna sell it off take the money and run or they’re going to start to learn and grow and do more with their organization. And in order for them to do that they need the business book from the people who have come before them that can tell them okay here’s where you are now you gonna think about this, and you gonna think about that, and you gotta look at the other thing. Don’t worry so much about that right now but there yeah I know a lot of people are making noise about that you do not have to worry about lean and agile and six stick when and blah blah blah that’s later, right now you need to get down to the nuts and bolts and look at this, and look at that, look at the other thing. Well and you should start hiring but you need a book on how to hire people and you need information, information is the most valuable thing in today’s world as comical behind a hundred and forty characters. So business book writers and aspiring business book writers need to keep these audience considerations in mind when they sit down or they wander around their organizations or they wander around their consulting, you know businesses they’re consulting at and figure out not just what I’m gonna say but who am I gonna say it too; and though you can’t write a separate book just for the millennials because they’re not the entire market, not yet. So you have to say it in such a way that it appeals across the boundaries but you have to keep in mind that there are boundaries to cross, and that’s what I mean by the landscape changing. Does that make sense?

Derek: I think that’s a great point because in so many, so many business authors especially in their you know, maybe in their forties or fifties have the model that the business book they write needs to look like the business books that they’ve read. And the business books that they’ve read are good to create an in a surge of excellence and outliners, but some of these really thick academic leaning type, types of books and there’s a place for those and a market for those. But the trade audience if you want to try to capture the broader trade audience for business books you have to take into account that that market has grown to include millennials who don’t want to read 60 pages to learn 2 things. They don’t need an entire dissertation and trade off that’s not what they’re looking for so it has to account for that. These business books, and this whenever you’re writing business books I think that some people have in mind if we’re gonna write it for millennials it has to be a career book or it has to be one of this kind of basic books but you hit the nail on the head that there’s so many that are starting businesses in high school or in their college dormitories or in their twenties and they need you know all of the business know-how and knowledge that an executive in their forties or fifties might need. But they need it in a way that they can, they need it in a way that they can digest, in a way that speaks to them, in a way that doesn’t just turn them off before they even pick up the book much less get their chapter one.

Claudia: And one of the things that I have found to be an issue with some of the people that I’m working with these days is that there are so stuck in the old school concept of what a business book should look like. It needs to be all dry and factual and by the numbers and sometimes it even gets a little salty and it gets very very jargonistic. And it has no personality it has no personal appeal but what’s selling better these days are those book that whether at the author can shake that off a little bit and say okay I’m the one writing book, I’ve been doing this all these years and let me tell you a little bit of how I did this, and where I came from, and how I made this mistake so you don’t have to make that same mistake and it’s a little bit more personal. And the more personal approach instead of the dry reputation back then and translating all that jargon into words that actually make sense to our cold reader. To someone who’s not already you know sit in all of that insider businessy talk. Those are more appealing in the marketplace and I predicted they would continue to be more and more appealing and that’s the way where I was going because

Derek: Oh is that so

Claudia: Because this is a dry hesitation effect. It’s just you know that’s, those are gonna be some are ought to be textbooks and they know you ain’t get rid of textbooks.

Derek: Yeah and I’m up for tone it. (crosstalk) Oh, go ahead.

Claudia: I’m sorry that’s what all I’m going to say, business is not unemotional, I know we all like to think it is. We want everything to be unemotional but this is not book and we’re not all fact and business people are very emotional. We try to keep our negative emotions off of the table and out of the office but that doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.

Derek: Well I’m there I think that people

Claudia: And I believe that we shouldn’t, go ahead

Derek: People connect on an emotional level and there are plenty of business buyers that even that they’re huge they’ve decided to have a book that embodies the voice and the spirit of the founder. So I’m thinking of a, I’m thinking of Tony Hsieh and the founder of Zappos you know he could have written this academic book but he wrote you know this very personal book about you know the Journey of Zappos. And the same thing with Tom Shoes you know he wrote a book from his own perspective about you know the journey and some of this advice. So even these larger brands still see the benefit of having a personal connection to a business book with their readers so they don’t have to create a textbook, they wanna create something that actually connects with their consumers.

Claudia: And I think when they did that that they have a better chance of retention.

Derek: Yeah

Claudia: It’s been very very hard to retain a fact in a state unless you have a fact that they just had. And a lot of this is they created people. They came up with the idea; they came up with the fight they came up with the business they came up with the back. And then they’re not, fact and figures people they are let’s try this, what if we do that, and wouldn’t it be cool if. I mean my second book wouldn’t it be cool if blooper wouldn’t it be cool if. And you said that organizations that came out of you know some kind of a business model these are organizations that came out of hey I got an idea, what do you think, wouldn’t it be cool if. Even that just lesson wouldn’t it be cool if, why don’t we try this, why don’t we try that, what’s the hurt what would that what do we got to lose, we have nothing to, I don’t have a kid I don’t have anything to lose. I’m not gonna lose you know my home, I’m not gonna lose my car, I’m too young to have a car I don’t own a home I still live with mommy and daddy, it would be cool if we try this.

Derek: (laughing)

Claudia: And that’s how the kids are growing. And if they in those, if we go back you know and they think about life a little bit less by the numbers, the way the numbers have been you know placed around the campus these days. People in their teens, thirteen and fourteen and fifteen, twelve, fifteen, sixteen were always the movers and shakers of business. Businesses were started by people who were young; wars were fought by people who were young. We have always relied on our teenagers and our twenty-year-olds to drive the world always always always. But now that we are living longer we have forgotten that biological reality that where men become the man and woman becomes the woman biologically they go on into the world with good stuff. We should get about that it’s just the fact that life it’s just historical anthropological reality you can’t get away from it unless of course, you think the irk of life but nevertheless

Derek: (laughing)

Claudia: people are not going to stop being creative just because we keep trying to put them into boxes and more and more as we are opening our mind and allowing the idea of diversity to be part of our lives. Cause that was something that’s always there that we look at you know once or twice a year on national burial week or something like that. Then more and younger people are going to continue to create new businesses and people in their twenties are going to be looking for direction and they are all in need of the older generations knowledge. Now we can’t pretend that this isn’t going to continue the way it’s always been it’s going to change, its changing every day. But if you’re a business writer, if you’re a business book writer, if you’re a consultant, and like I say there’s a gazillion consultant out there, like you’re a speaker, if you’ve been in business, if you have grown a business and you want to help somebody having up along in business books then tell your story, but tell your story, get rid of the hey look at me I’m so great kind of stuff and tell your story along the lines of you know I think this but no in your environment you might consider being that. And when I tried this okay it didn’t work but you might consider doing the other thing and just like you say, make it personable, make it personal. I don’t know the big brands that you talked about because it’s not my field, that’s the case, I’m a generalist and I did not specialize in business books, in fact, I would rather not specialize in business books, my gospels I cannot specialize in child special abuse survivor book but I do an awful lot of those as well. And it still comes down to the same thing, whether it’s non-fiction, whether its business which is as non-fiction as you can get are we going except you know textbooks, math, science, engineering textbooks those are even more non-fiction but the story a trade book is concerned, a business book is as non-fiction as you can get, unless you’re writing a trade business book. And you have a trade business book that I’ve read are pretty personal. You have to keep in mind not just who your audience used to be but who your audience is and is going to be. This is 2017 and less than 3 years we’re going to be into the third decade of the 21st century

Derek: (laughing) That reminds me I’m still getting ready for Y2k, I can’t pretend that it’s about to be 2020.

Claudia: It’s about 2020 and I would probably be telling to be to 2050. Probably, it’s not that long in the future, yeah maybe now if that’s a lot way of I’m old and crutch yeah, but still

Derek: (laughing) You never know

Claudia: I know when I write something when I write something that I am not writing for the people my age; they already know what I have to know. And in fact, if they don’t know what I have to know I bet you there are 9 million other books that’s already out there by people my age written by people my age, I don’t need to write another one. But look at all the other people I can write to, there are even more of them. People in their forties, people in their thirties, people in their twenties, people having a home from the military who now have to do something with their lives. People who are you know are assuring college because you know college is the great you know it’s just an exam for people, it’s just a time waste for other people. It’s definitely essential. The people who rode the businesses and hire all the employees are the ones who need your book. The people who are stuck in an occupation or in a job that they know that they have the creativity and they have the drive and they have the ambition to be something more they need your book. The people who are trying to figure out what in the world to do in this life, this life that has gotten so screwy, it is not the same as it was when I was a kid, it was not the same it was when Derek was a kid and Derek’s a lot younger than me but still not the same.

Derek: (laughing)

Claudia: It’s not the same. Life is changing constantly.

Derek: Well Claudia you know you’ve hit on so many of the benefits that that without saying it, so many of the benefits that come with working with a ghostwriter. And one of them is having this industry in-depth industry knowledge, having you know your finger on the pulse of the industry; having an idea of the different kinds of readers and the different kinds of ways that you should shape your book. So we talked about all the benefits let’s get down to talking about what it’s like to work with a ghostwriter. So you know one of the big misconceptions that your efforts have gone a long way in the spelling is that somebody, you know one person writes the books and then somebody else gets all the credit. And that’s not ghostwriting at all so talk about the misconceptions of ghostwriting and then talk about the realities of ghostwriting.

Claudia: Well I’ll be happy to add and I just kind of dump tales with personal that explains my ghostwriting class last night. If we all remember I love Lucy and the episode in which she sat down with a bunch of yellow pads and she wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and then she sent it all off just like that to a publisher and the publisher sent her a check and she was a published author, isn’t that sweet. That was never real, ladies and gentlemen please from the bottom of my heart that was never real. It’s never a solitary occupation. I know we say this all the time, writing is so lonely it’s a solitary occupation an actual fact writing maybe a solitary occupation but creating a book is not. It has never been, and in today’s world, you can’t afford to think that way anymore because if you do you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Here is the way ghostwriting really work is very very intimate cause you the author and me the ghostwriter or Derek the ghostwriter or Claudia the ghostwriter of Lee the ghostwriter or Beth the ghostwriter or Ohalo the ghostwriter or I don’t know all of my other ghostwriters I’ve graduated a bunch of them so almost a hundred ghost writers so far. It’s you, you and the ghostwriter getting together and figuring out what you should put into the book, what you want to put into the book and make the list and then start talking about everything you want to talk about, everything without worrying about how I’m out without worrying about you know putting it in the right order, without worrying about if you’re saying the wrong thing, the  wrong words, without worrying if you’re throwing your partner under the bus, okay we’ll pick that up later. And without worrying that they’re calling you out on this utter idiot we’ll take that out later, we’ll fix that later, you won’t come on a complete troubled idiot, we’ll call it a partial idiot, we’ll qualify them with it.

Derek: (laughing)

Claudia: But then it comes later, first we just talk about everything, and we record it all, and then we transcribe it, and we got what you want to say, and then we start to put it in order, and then the ghostwriter writes the first chapter based on everything that you and the ghostwriter have discussed. They write the first chapter, you already know what it’s gonna be about because you and the ghostwriter have worked out the sustainable contents, have worked out the outline of the book, and the ghostwriter sends you that chapter and you look at it and say oh I really did throw hard part now at the book, no we can’t say that. And you know what I totally forget that the idea came from my great end to build constance prude of the sun when we need to put that in. And you go back and forth with the ghostwriter and the chapter to make sure that everything says what’s supposed to say the way you wanted it to be said. One chapter, and then you know what you do with the second chapter the exact same thing back and forth on every single chapter. The ghostwriter puts together things that what you’ve already talked about, what’s already been recorded and transcribed and sends it to you, and then you say I don’t like that, I do like that, I forgot to take that out, and do you think they’re gonna sue me about this well okay then let’s take that out. And you go back and forth and back and forth on every single chapter when you get done with the entire book it would have been a very intimate thing between you and the ghostwriter and you might think oh the ghostwriter owe this book and a lot of piece of this book, and no they don’t, it’s not their book. It’s not their book; it’s your book because without you the book wouldn’t exist. Now the book could exist without the ghost writer you could do it on your own, it’s gonna take a lot more time and it may not come out as well and probably wouldn’t come out as well but it’s your information, it’s your content, it’s your story, it’s your perspective, it’s your everything so it’s your book. That’s rule number three in the ghostwriting and there are only five rules in ghostwriting and the third rule is it’s not my book because it’s not our book. So when the whole book is done then the ghostwriters gonna go back and do another task and send it to you in crust, and this is called the line editing task and this is where we put in the music and the rhythm of the editorial music and rhythm into these manuscripts and make sure that the words are exactly the same but the punctuation is a little bit different, because we have new punctuation rule when did that happen? Oh in the last 18 months, no big deal

Derek: (laughing)

Claudia: I’ll get used to it and we’re gonna make sure that the coding is correct so that you publish it but then kick it back to you say well I love the manuscript back there and you have to make sure that this spelled this way and this spelled that way and you forgot the other thing blah blah blah. We take care of all of that you don’t have to blow your head about that. I mean even self-publishing services are now kicking manuscripts back or demanding more money to take care of that coding because things do not be disclosed quickly and even in e-books. If you cannot format a new part of correctly, so we take care of that, we do final edits, we send it to a proofreader and you have a book. And it’s a team effort; it’s you and the ghostwriter, the copy editor if there’s a copy editor, the proofreader, the designer okay, and the ad people, and the cover art, and the publisher or publishing forward or however you do it. It’s a team, it takes a team to make a viable, marketable product that’s going to thrive in our rack of sellers, it’s gonna drop like a rock in the abyss of titles that are not well crafted, are not well conceived, are not well targeted, and did not take it into consideration for really who its actually going to be, like

Derek: Claudia what are some of the, yeah what are some of the surprises or misconceptions, what is some of the big hurdles or stumbling blocks that ghostwriters and then their clients sometimes by themselves facing.

Claudia: Well let’s see, I think one of the big ones is the miscommunication about who the audience is. I think another one is, I’m trying to think, I thought you should have too many surprises with my clients because I’ve been doing this so long and  I kind of would be on the

Derek: (laughing)

Claudia: You think well you know well-oiled track here, but (crosstalk)

Derek: You’ve gotten to the, you’ve gotten to the important

Claudia: With new people is sometimes people who are trying to write books do not think that there it should cost any money and it shouldn’t cost any money yet they’re absolutely right, all they have to do if they don’t want to spend any money is put in the time to learn to do it themselves because pen wise everything’s cost need a pay for of money or you pay for it with time. The ghostwriter has spent the time to know what they’re doing and to know the business if you don’t wanna stick take you know for that expertise then you would spend the time to know what you’re doing and you spend the time to learn the business. It’s doable, yeah it’s gonna cost some money because anything costs money (laughing) and at the end when you have to think about everything and you need to speak it out I don’t know it’s up to you. My cost ability is a good publishing I can’t answer that kind of questions but I can tell you that ghostwriters if you’re looking for ghostwriters on craigslist then they’ll give you somebody who’s gonna write you business books for 500 dollars or 7500 dollars and you are on a fool’s errand and you’re just blowing your money for no good, you know instead of spending your money on that take your spouse out or your kids out and have a great vacation because it’s not gonna get you a book. It’s not gonna get you the marketing tool that will open doors for you after consulting, it’s not gonna get you the marketing tool that would get you that speakers gig. It’s not gonna get you the tool that’s going to help other people, it’s not gonna get you the tool that’s going to elevate your standing in your field so that people turn to you for answers, it’s not going to get you what you want. If you want quality then you will have to pay quality prices, if you want you know if you want a Kia then buy a Kia, if you bought if you want an SUV then you gonna have to pay for the SUV, if you want a Lamborghini you have to pay for a Lamborghini. It’s the same thing in ghostwriting as it is in everything else and I think that’s probably the biggest disconnect I run into. Is that I ran into authors who want my expertise, so they knock the expertise of the certified ghostwriters for that train but they don’t wanna pay for it and they don’t have to pay for it. Because writing a book is not a shelter, it’s not food, it’s not medical stuff, it’s, it’s a lot. It’s not a need. So you could do anything you want, but if your desires are more than just a passing fancy you actually want to be effective, and you want to create something of quality, and something that you have shown to friends and family, and colleagues, and potential clients, or even potential employers, it doesn’t have to be a large book. Even potential employers, if you want something that demonstrates your quality that is a written to who you are and what you know and what you’ve accomplished then invests in yourself. That’s the biggest disconnect I’ve run into, a lot of quality I don’t wanna pay for. I’m sorry I can’t help everyone.

Derek: (laughing) What about a royalty arrangement versus a flat c, I know that in a lot of other industries one or the other might make more sense but in with the business books, it’s really a case by case issue.

Claudia: I don’t know anything about ghostwriters who work what I call collaboration deal. I’ve never been a collaborator; I’ve always been a ghostwriter. When I’m done with the project you and I walk away we shake hands because whenever we walk away from each other you never have to see me on every time. I’m not going to show up and talk about your book. I’m not gonna uphold with the, ah, the thing that the Trump’s ghostwriter who wasn’t a ghostwriter folk because he wasn’t a ghostwriter, his name was on the book and it got harder to deal and that’s the problem with getting credit the deal. Is that you have to write the same of and you want to have the right with anything like your names on the book, okay? I don’t believe in that, I believe in ghostwriting being exactly what it has traditionally and how it has always been. It is me, I have my gifts and my talent, you the author, know what you want, a book that you need to get out of you, let’s get together, I will help you work these, bring that out of you and make it into a quality product that you will record this would get you where you want to go. You go pay me, I go walk away, you never have to mention my name ever again. I’m not gonna come back and talk you in, I’m not gonna come back and talk it out, I’m not gonna come back and mention you. It’s your book, completely, totally, and without any strings attached. You paid me, I’m done, it’s how it is, it’s clean it’s simple, it’s legal. It is the legal definition of ghostwriting or so says the Supreme Court.

Derek: (laughing) Well Claudia I mean you’re a well-fed acknowledged and we could honestly sit here for another hour easily and a, and let me pick your brain but I know that you have, I know that you have a tight schedule and we’re coming to the end of our time. Is there anything that you would like to leave  our listeners with before we, before we sign off?

Claudia: Yes just one thing you’re a business person, if you like to write a business book that means you are a business person and you understand business and you understand the cost that are sold, you understand quality, you understand what you need in order to advance your business. A business book is a marketing tool pure and simple, beyond all other things, beyond the personal satisfaction, beyond the personal or the company network, beyond you know just relaying wanna know into the next generation. It is a marketing tool as it is the definitive marketing tool, you don’t have to reproduce it once it’s done you’ve got it. And once it’s done and you’ve built your audience on it, if you decide you want to do another version you already got your built-in market. It is a win-win situation for any business owner or business consultant to do a business book. There’s just no downside to it. So think quality, you want this to be a quality literary property because that’s what it is. It’s a literary property, an intellectual property, it’s a product. And I know that you’re not putting out a shoddy product you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t want your name associated with shoddy products. It’s not gonna get you where you wanna go. So put the quality of your life and your life’s work and your business into your book and let it take you to the next step that you wanna go to. And I wish you nothing but luck, and I think that’s all I have to say.

Derek: (laughing) Well that’s great, that’s a great note to end on. For everybody who’s listening if you are looking for a great book on the on understanding publishing and being able to how to take advantage of Claudia’s decades in the industry make sure that you get the most recent edition, it just came out actually a few weeks ago maybe two months ago, it is the 5th edition of this Business of Books and if you’re speaking to anyone who’s even thinking about becoming a ghostwriter, stir them to the ghostwriter certification program out of CSU Long Beach.

Claudia: That’s really and if you, if you’re looking for one of the best book ghostwriter or business book ghostwriter in the world, Derek is definitely one of them, and we are we’re not in cahoots, we do not take anything off of each other’s business but we are very much associates and we do provide support for each other because that like in any profession is what professionals do. Always work with professionals, Derek thank you so much for this opportunity, I do have to go.

Derek: Claudia it has been my absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Claudia: Thank you, you have a great day and thank you, ladies and gentlemen, I wish you well with your books.

Derek: Bye bye

Claudia: Bye bye