SEASON 2 – The Business Book Podcast – Roy Williams

Derek: Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to another episode of The Business Book Podcast and today it is my very special honor to have as a guest a man who has been a virtual mentor of mine for, for merely a decade even though this is our very first time to meet, I have on the line Roy Williams the Wizard of Ads he is- whenever I first started in copywriting, one of the first books I found that everybody said you have to read if you wanna do any kind of copywriting was the Wizard of Ads which I didn’t realize it at the time was a, was one of the business books or was the business book of the of the year. I loved the book so much I had to get the 2 other ones Secret Formulas of the Wizard of Ads, Magic Worlds of the Wizard of Ads, then I got his book Accidental Magic, I subscribed to the Monday Morning Memo which has been a unique kind of whimsical business oriented e-mail that’s going out every Monday morning, I didn’t realize until Roy just informed me, it’s been going out every Monday without fail for 23 years, and a kind of hurts my feelings cause I’ve only been subscribed for 9  or 10, so I missed a decade but hopefully I got the good stuff in the books. Last year I finally had the chance to go out to the Wizard Academy which is this incredible campus a just north of Boston, whenever I went out there just a day or so I described it as Alice in Wonderland meets Richard Branson out west it is just that incredible of an experience. When I’m looking forward to getting out there and taking another course and then I bought while I was out there about 2 more of Roy’s books Pendulum and Destinae they are, I could, if it sounds like I’m gushing it’s because I am. Anyway enough of my experience, my adoration of Roy, Roy thank you so much for the taking the time to talk to me today.

Roy: Derek I’m really forward to hearing from this guy that you’re describing who (stuttering) would we be talking with today?

Derek: (laughing)

Roy: I’m really looking forward to meeting this guy too.

Derek: Yes he’ll probably show up before too long once we get there

Roy: I don’t know, I don’t know, I’ve never met that guy, but I’ll tell you what the one thing I do agree with very much and I didn’t know you said this until just now but Alice in Wonderland meets Richard Branson out west, that’s really good, I really like that, I don’t consider myself Richard Branson but I understand there’s a Richard Branson audacity about this place and there’s definitely an Alice in Wonderland fantasy about it and so people were always floored when the get here. One tiny tiny correction and the only reason I mention it is you said North of Austin, rack me on the south southwest of Austin, so I’d hate for somebody passing through Austin to head to the north side of town thinking they’re gonna find us now we’re like 45 minutes from the north side of town we’re in deep Southwest Austin on a plateau

Derek: Sorry

Roy: At 900 ft. above the city looking down on Austin, Texas from 900 ft. above it.

Derek: That’s a gorgeous view I, I don’t know why I was thinking North because whenever I went, whenever I went to Austin also when I anybody who’s going to Austin has to go to the Salt Lake it’s a great barbecue out there and you have to  (crosstalk)

Roy: It’s southwest

Derek: Well yeah you have to pass by the Wizard Academy to get out there so maybe that’s a landmark some people can use. Yup we’re just about (crosstalk)

Roy: Yeah (crosstalk) about my own house from the south lakes

Derek: Which was a great barbecue joint, I got excited the other day cause they’re putting in a restaurant here.

Roy: Uh huh

Derek: Oh my god the barbecue place in Austin is extending out here to Baton Rouge but it was Salt Grass not the Salt Lakes

Roy: Oh yeah I tell you Baton Rouge is a delightful town, I’ve been there a few times and one of my very closest friends played for LSU, played football, he’s in Los Angeles now but I was corresponding with him earlier this morning by email name Roy Locklin if anybody is familiar

Derek: Roy

Roy: Yeah and he was right there, and he’s still very much a Baton Rouge boy in LA.

Derek: Well from LA to LA

Roy: Yup there you go hadn’t thought of it that way

Derek: (laughing) yeah that’s a whenever we tell people yeah from LA but they actually kind of turn up so we have to

Roy: We mean the Louisiana La (laughing)

Derek: Roy you know one of the things that I love to help people with is trying to get ideas out of their head and get them on to paper. And one of the things that people are always worried about is if they know enough to write a book, and I have to continually encourage people that if they lived and especially if they’re thinking about a business book if they’ve been out in the workforce for you know 10 years or more then they absolutely know enough to write a book.

Roy: You know I’ll tell you what Derek, this morning I stumble across a quote Paul Gauguin, now Paul Gauguin is an expressionistic painter about the same time as Cezanne and Monet and those guys, okay he was French. But what he said was don’t follow the masters the masters didn’t become masters because they followed someone else, they became masters because they went their own direction. And I said to myself well that’s really true of books too, and so what I would tell people is you know don’t try to write a book that’s already been written now you don’t think you haven’t anything to say but if you say something that you believe or it’s an assumption that you have, or it’s a theory that you have, or you know it’s just a pet technique that you have, then you write it down. Yay you’re gonna have some on to step for the course you just got to write down and pretty soon what you’re gonna find is all this different little thoughts that you’ve written down and I, I actually write mine down in the back of restaurant receipts and stuff it in my wallet that’s, then after several weeks I’ll get out all the restaurants receipts with little thoughts scribbled at the back of it and I’ll lay them out, and Derek every time 100% of the time, I think this are disjointed ideas have nothing to do with each other. I just have this really random thoughts going through my head. But when I pull out these receipts and look at all this little scribbles notes I’ve made to myself, I always realize oh my gosh my mind has been turning in a particular direction that I didn’t even realize my unconscious mind have been kind of turning this over in my head and every one of these things, when you arrange them in a certain order is definitely connected and then it becomes a thing. So what I’m saying is you don’t want to simply read business books and then echo what you read. I’ll tell you what that reminds me of I have friends that went to one too many Tony Robins’ seminars and then

Derek: (laughing)

Roy: They thought they were gonna be and I’m talking about they decided they’re gonna be Tony Robins Jr. and I’m going no no no, I’m not looking and nobody’s looking for a bad imitation of Tony Robins you know you’ve got your own mojo, you’ve got your own stuff, and if you don’t think it’s very good then its cause you know yourself too well.

Derek: (laughing)

Roy: I mean people, people that have never, people have never seen that or heard that they’re gonna go wow that’s really interesting and so the key is to start collecting little stuff in little amounts and keeping it in a place where you can find it, and then when you sit down you kind of say this any of this make any sense or kind of could it be structured in such a way that you know different ideas lead other ideas. And just cause you’ve never seen, or heard, or read a book like the one you seem to be writing hey that’s good news, that’s wonderful news. If you’ve never heard of anybody say anything like this before because it’s your own just crazy theories and thoughts, okay that’s the very best kind of new book.

Derek: Well that, that validates something that I’ve, I’ve preaching for a little bit to, to authors, and I first found the idea in Steven King’s book on, on writing, he was

Roy: Uh huh, Uh hmm

Derek: Relating a story of, of an interview that he had with a journalist and he was telling in much like you’re saying that, that the ideas for his books, he believes stories are not things that we create but things that we discover that they are buried in the sub strata of our subconscious, that even when we’re asleep, even whenever we’re thinking about other things our subconscious is still working on, on all of these ideas and mashing things together, and putting this with that. And it’s our job not to try to write a book but to try to delve into what our subconscious has been working on and extract that. He said it’s like getting a fossil out of the ground, and our job is to extract it as intact as possible as we’re, we’re bringing it out. And that’s exactly how I think books should, should be written it should be something valuable, something maybe not something unique in the core idea, but unique at least in the way that you present it, unique in the stories that you bring to the table, unique in your (crosstalk)

Roy: Absolutely

Derek: spin on it

Roy: Uh huh, you know the and you’ll have certain little phrases that you use privately, write those down in the book, you put a little pep phrase you have for a, for a particular idea or belief or circumstance you know. I think in one of my books I talked about a story, my dad one time when I was little he took a trip to New Orleans, his first time he’s ever been there and this would have been back literally early in the 60’s and down in the French Quarter he’s, he heard crack pop pow, and it suddenly almost like gunfire and he turned and look and it was a man shining shoes and you know, while all your listeners might not be old enough to remember those days but a shoe shine stand out on a sidewalk when a guy’s buffing you know with his, with his rag his towel and he’d be shining those shoes and he’d pop that rag and it would crack like a whip and dad said man I’m a walk over there and those probably the shiniest shoes in the world. And then he got over there and he said it’s just a regular old shoe shine they weren’t nothing special, that guy was just popping the rag, he’s popping the rag. And so the reason he told me the story is because one of his salesman had come in telling some big story about some big sale he was about to close, and then whenever he left his name was Dick, and whenever Dick walked out the office, dad said aye Dick ain’t gonna sell crap he’s just popping the  rag. (laughing)

Derek: (laughing)

Roy: And I said what popping the what? What does that mean? And that’s when he told me the story, now here’s what’s interesting, your listeners a lot of them have little phrases like that popping the rag or some little silly thing they say sometimes, and what happens is that’s what makes a book enjoyable. When you have little stuff that you think anybody’s gonna understand, or anybody’s gonna like it, or care about it, maybe it’s not valuable enough, it didn’t sound professional. Oh just shut up, write that down, write that down, people are gonna like it cause they’ve never heard it before and a you know you don’t need courage to write a book. You just need hunger, you just need to say I got this stuff in me and I just think I wanna get it on paper and for even it’s just for my kids or my grandkids someday, you know I just, I just kind of wanna get this stuff written down cause it’s things that I think I know or its things that I think I’ve learned. Yes, yes, write that stuff down, have a place where you can scribble it down and collect it, and then you’ll sit down and you’ll assemble it together and it’ll start taking form and before you know it people will be reading it going ayes this is great, this is great you need to finish this. Am I right?

Derek: Yeah there’s the (crosstalk)

Roy: Has been that your experience Derek?

Derek: Yeah there’s things that make it personable, that make it memorable, because whenever people read a book they, they don’t just want to get information. They want to be, I think the best business books are not only informative, they have to deliver some real values. But they need to be interesting or even entertaining; people want to enjoy the experience. I mean if you’ve got to go to the doctor’s office, wouldn’t it be nice to have a, you know some bottle of you liked there while you’re waiting and I think that’s what (crosstalk)

Roy: Oh yeah and now here’s the thing, I’m gonna tell you two things and the first one is just my own observation as an ad writer, and the second one is an information from the single mount (stuttering) bard press, my publisher is far and away, does not even a close second place the most successful business book publisher in the history of the world, very few people realize this but almost every year the business book of the year is a Bard Press book and he only publishes maybe two books, three books a year at the very very most. And the reason he’s the best there’s ever been is more than 50% of all the books he’s ever published have been New York Times Bestsellers nobody else has even hit double digits, no other publisher in history has even hit 10% of all their books being New York’s Bestsellers. He is over 50% now I’m gonna share something in just a minute he said that a, we have lunch from time to time, he’s a very very good friend, now what happened is as an ad writer I tell my clients all the time people are less often looking for information you know when they’re on Google we type in a search string we’re looking for information, but outside that moment, the only currency that will purchase the  time and attention of a too busy public, they’re just too too busy. The only currency that will purchase their time and attention is the currency of entertainment. And so you have to have entertainment, if it’s entertaining, if it’s funny, if its lighthearted, if it’s interesting, if it’s you know there’s a mystery and then the mystery is solved you know a it doesn’t matter. But if it’s entertaining, if people having a good time all the reason is, then that’s how you purchase their time and the time to, to learn things. So everybody thinks they have this information that’s really valuable well, yeah the whole world has information that’s really valuable, but the stuff that actually gets read is the stuff that actually is kind of fun. Now here’s what Ray said that blew my mind, are you ready Derek? This is like gold, this is gold. One day we we’re having lunch and he said Roy, he said I’ve been studying I mean literally studying all the top selling business books in history, the books that sold just vast number of copies, and he said I noticed something he said this is really interesting he said they all have the same four ingredients. He said that everybody has the first two, everybody that ever I had an idea for a nonfiction book they always have the first two, but vey very very few people have number three, and even fewer understand number four, and I said but what is it? He said number one is a big idea, what’s your big idea

Derek: Right

Roy: And he said everybody has a big idea he said- I said okay, what’s the number two? And he said well nuts and bolts and I said what do you mean? He said well nuts and bolts are step by step you know explanations and examples and you know illustrations, and you know you explain here’s how you do the big idea, this is step by step how to kind of an explanation he said next

Derek: Right, okay

Roy: Everybody has a big idea, everybody has step by step, guess what number three was Derek?

Derek: Waiting in bes- (crosstalk)

Roy: Can you guess? Alright

Derek: (unintelligible) ideas, stories?

Roy: Entertainment, entertainment. Big idea, nut’s and bolts, and then entertainment he gets very few, he says everybody has the first two but only the big winners have number three. And he said but the biggest biggest winners not only have one two and three but they also have number four; and I said okay what is that? And he said hope, they deliver hope

Derek: Hope

Roy: And I said define that for me, and Ray Bard said to me he said Roy when you give them hope you make them believe that next time can turn out different than last time, and tomorrow can be better than yesterday, and the future can be better than the past because they now have this information, they have this perspective, they have been given this gift that you gave them. He said when you give a person a big idea and then nuts and bolts, that’s the easy part. But then you give them entertainment you kick it up to a whole new level. And he said and then you if you add number four if when they’re done with that book they feel like things are gonna be different now. He said that’s literally when you sell millions of copies. And he said having studied all the biggest books in history, that’s what the biggest non-fiction books all have in common, they have number three and they have number four. And he says most books just have number one and number two.

Derek: Hope. I had not put that into the interview equation.

Roy: Like I said it’s gold. Now here’s what I told him and I said Ray that’s just not true of books, that’s true of everything. Everything, I said there is nothing that that’s not true of. When you run a business and you’re I don’t care what you’re selling a brick and motor store, it doesn’t matter what you’re selling. If you have a big idea and you have a step by step process of how to implement this big idea, and then you make it fun for people, and if they feel like things are gonna be different now. Now that I’ve been here, or now that I’ve bought this, or now that I’ve done this it’s like boy how’s the things gonna be different now. You’ve given them hope, and I said Ray it’s not just big bucks, it’s the theory of being successful at anything. Now remember he originated this idea just studying business books but that’s Ray is a deep introvert, he’s almost a recluse.

Derek: (laughing)

Roy: Very very very few people have ever met him. I’m told it is you have to find that how, you have to have a helicopter to get to his house. And I went with him one time to the book show in New York you know the big NBN convention? Derek, it was crazy, we walked in and we hadn’t got 20 steps inside the Jacob K. Javits Center in New York City

Derek: Yeah

Roy: Millions of square feet, I mean it’s like you walk up and down the aisles all day every day for three days without stopping, you still haven’t seen everything, one of those deals. And we got like 10, 20 steps inside the front door and people started running to get, they saw it was Ray Bard

Derek: (laughing)

Roy: And they start crowding around him and I, I’ve got, I was getting pushed back. I’m the only other person with him, I was getting pushed back and I could, I could see him getting smaller and smaller in the distance as more and more people crowded around him. And I was like Ray, help me, so I’m like drowning, I’m getting pushed back by this ocean of people. And so he had to force his way back through that crowd gathered around him and grabbed me by my hand and pulled me back with him and I’m going, he can’t go anywhere cause when he’s around publishing people, when he’s around other publishers, and authors and stuff, they want to hang around with him and sit at his feet and listen to stuff, cause he’s, he’s even older than me, I’m old guy, and he’s older than me, and he’s kind of like the guy that nobody ever gets to meet, and so he don’t ever go to those things but I’m telling you that was the single most valuable thing he ever shared with me. And I said we’ve hung out now for well since 1997 so 20 years, and I just thought I’d share that with your audience cause they deserve to know that there’s only four things they got to be thinking about, the big idea, nuts and bolts, how to make it fun and make it entertaining, and give people hope.

Derek: But let me, let me throw a curved ball at you

Roy: Uh huh

Derek: You had that conversation, but then just last week actually you the, your most recent book Be Like Amazon Even a Lemonade Stand Can Do It came out so I’d love to hear how you put those four things into a , into your most recent book.

Roy: Well okay now this is gonna seem a little bit abstract for some people but for some of you’re a, podcast subscribers they’re gonna enjoy this. So I’m gonna go ahead and tell it like it really happened

Derek: Please do

Roy: My very best friend Jeffrey Eisenberg he and his brother have written some New York Times Bestsellers and they were always a little bit text book feeling but they we’re very valuable. And then they came out to the academy and they spent a day presenting a bunch of information to me about and how any company even if you’re not an online company, even if you’re just a bricks and motors lemonade stand, you can use the four principles that made the first company or the fastest company that ever hit 100 Billion Dollars a year. Now do you realized that they launched the stame, the same year I started the Monday Morning Memo

Derek: 23 years ago

Roy: And they’ve grown over a hundred billion dollars a year. Did you know that the stock market value of is more than double the market value for Walmart?

Derek: Oh

Roy: That’s how much that company’s worth and how they did it is real obvious and it’ll work for anybody not just a, not just you know online companies. It has nothing to do with being online, and so they presented this information and I said guys I love this information but you’re writing another textbook, and they said well what do you suggest? And I said you could really give a lot of people hope and you could really give them a lot of step by step instruction using Amazon as a highly credible example. And I said but you got to tell it like a story and they said well we don’t know how to do that and I said well do you just trust me to write this book for you? And they said yeah, now I had the good sense Derek to put microphones on everybody and to record this 8 hour day, now that transcript, we had it transcribed, you know you can upload those (stuttering) mp3’s and have it transcribed into an edit word document for just pennies. And so I had that done it was like were 40,000 words, well the finished book’s only 22,000 and so I had the transcript and I had the power point they have shown me, I had all these information, and then I wrote the book. So of course were giving people hope because were telling them how they can use the same principles that built and any business even if it’s a lemonade stand, any business can use these principles and they always always work. But then to make it entertaining, there’s a, there’s a famous story by Ernest Hemingway called Hills Like White Elephants, you go online right now and find it, it takes about 11 minutes to read it.

Derek: Found it

Roy: And if you (stuttering) read Hills like White Elephants here’s what you’ll notice Derek, you’ll notice there is no omniscient narrator, Hemingway never tells you why he said what he said, or what he meant by it, or how they were feeling when they said  it, or how it made the other person feel. The only thing that Hemingway ever ever tells you is what you would have seen with your own eyes if you’ve been sitting at the next table at this train station. And what you have heard with your ears, but he gives you no speculation, he doesn’t there’s no narrator that knows things that, that are  inserted just nope, just a simple recording of what happened, and no speculation of any kind. Well I decided I’m gonna tell the story about 2 guys on a road trip, and at the end of the story, the old man is just telling the younger man you know giving him some advice, and the younger man is all pissed off at first, he’s really giving him all kinds of pushback, and you can sense the tension. And so it’s a dialog, literally it is a conversation between two people in a car on a long road trip, now Derek you’ve been on long road trips haven’t you?

Derek: More than I, more than I wanna remember.

Roy: But if you have somebody with you, don’t you have some of the best conversations of your whole life, on a long road trip with one other person in the car?

Derek: Fact, that’s the one thing that I look forward to now that I’m married, me and my wife being on a long road trip. We have some of our best and meaningful conversations just having you know one foot from each other hours and hours of long end.

Roy: And so Derek, that’s why I did it, that’s exactly why I did it. I decided this old man and this younger man in this story you’re never told their real names, you only know their nicknames for each other, you never passed of what their relationship is cause it, the narrator, there is no narrator to tell you what the relationship was. But most people say the young one’s probably the grandson of the old one, but there’s no way to know that for sure, that’s just kind of what you suspect. You don’t know where they’re going, what they plan to do when they get there, what they do for a living, what the problem is that needs to be solved, you’re never told any of that. And it really doesn’t matter to you at all, you just know that the young man is very very frustrated and kind of, kind of scared and the old man is trying to talk him down from that. And like sisters a lot of conflict between them, there’s some argument, and there’s some stuff that’s really really funny but there’s only two characters in the whole book, just a conversation. The whole book is a conversation between an old man and a young man in a car on a road trip together. And what I’m saying is for that reason it’s very entertaining, it’s a lot of fun to read, it gives you hope cause it tells you that you can, you can definitely use the same principles that built there’s only four of them and Jeff Bezos has publicly talked about this forever for over twenty years, and the only people really paying attention in what Jeff Bezos was saying was Jeffrey and Bryan Eisenberg. And so the book came out last week, it’s doing astoundingly well, it took minutes to put its completely sell out, and then placed an order for this vast number of copies because they’re getting all these orders for it. And it’ll be another couple of days and the books will be there and it’ll start going out again but this is gonna be as usually successful and that’s just a short little bit. Most people Derek are reading that sucker cover to cover without putting it down 22,000 words you can read it by an hour; okay an hour and 15 minutes maybe. And everybody’s saying exact same thing they’re saying man I’m so glad I read that and it was so much fun and I learned so much and so much came at me so quickly. And I’m going yeah that’s the idea make it entertaining, give people hope, there’s a big idea and there’s nuts and bolts. But that’s the easy part the big idea and the nuts and bolts everybody gets that. Is it did you find any value on that or was I just on a long rant?

Derek: No I loved that well Roy what about your whole approach is not, one of the things I find that gets in the way of people writing great business books is to some degree its fear, fear that they’re gonna be too unconventional or fear of how people are going to receive it or fear that other people would think that they’re a fraud. And what I love is that there’s a for me there’s a noticeable absence in any of that, you’re talking about deli- these awesome stories, you’re talking about being optimistic, being forward thinking about the grand vision and that, that comes across, that feel comes across in your books you still whenever you’re finished reading any of these books, that there is hope for the future, that there’s this wonderful thing to go  out there and seize that comes across in your books and I think that’s one of the reasons that, that they’re so great to read because you don’t, you’re very honest and genuine, you don’t hold any anything back this is, this is a

Roy: Derek thank you for saying that but I’m gonna tell you where that comes from and hopefully your, your listeners will find some value in this but I’ll tell you what I think is the most important thing and this (laughing) Ray Bard my publisher is took is very frustrated with this but my only goal ever when writing a book really in the deep deep deep secret parts of my heart, my only goal is for the book to exist. It’s written down, it exists. And if anybody ever wanted to know what I thought maybe mattered they can find it, they can read it. But the fact that it’s out of my head on that paper and it’s permanent and it would be there after I’m gone. That’s all I care about, that’s it; the end. Now that really frustrates Ray, now see that’s how come I have no fear.

Derek: (laughing)

Roy: It frustrates Ray, and I have no fear because hey when I’m done there it is, it exists. There it is that book exists and I’m done, I don’t care anymore. And Ray goes, and see whenever he called me one morning he told me we’ve made the New York Times Bestseller’s List he was disappointed that I wasn’t just like overjoyed. But you see I had already my big moment of joy when the book was printed and it existed, and that’s when I had my celebration. Oh we made the Bestseller’s List well huh never figured I’ll be a Bestselling Author, that’s weird. And he’s like man I thought you’d be happy a minute ago

Derek: (laughing)

Roy: Well you know, it’s just not a, not a goal that I had, not a thing that. It’s not a thing for me.

Derek: (laughing) That was unexpected, yeah, huh this is

Roy: Yeah okay so that’s fine but you know, and here’s what I’m writing now I have this other thing I think I wanna say and he goes well hey why don’t we like really promote this book it’s, it’s really getting momentum and I’m going nah that one’s already written, that one’s already written I’m not interested in that one anymore, it already exists. And so I just want to share with people when you have all this hopes and expectations of people that’ll love you and adore you and worship at your feet and ask you for advice and look up to you, well you’re just sick, get over that, don’t think that way. If you have something that you believe maybe might have valuable to somebody else, might be valuable to other people someday somewhere somebody might benefit from this, and you think man this is what I’ve learned, this is what I think I know or something that works for me that might work for other people too, write it down so that it is permanent. So that it doesn’t die when you die, write it down. And if that’s your goal is to help somebody else, you will have a successful book and you will have so much pride in that book and you’ll be so glad you wrote that book, but if you have any other hopes or expectations, then I don’t know what to tell you because all that stuff is speculative. And I do tell people all the time I said you know what if you write a business book the truth is you’re not actually gonna make money on that book, you can make a fortune, I mean a breath taking fortune because of the book, but the book itself when you write non-fiction is not where the money is. The money is because of the book, because people found it and they were helped and now they, they want more; they want something from you that they’re happy to pay for.

Derek:  Loved that frame of mind Roy because I’ve not so much these days I guess because of a because of better marketing due in their small part to following a lot of your stuff but I whenever I first started out ghost writing I had it seem liked every other phone call was some you know young guys sometimes a woman but mostly a young guy you know I’ve got this great idea for a book I want it to be a New York Times Bestseller they, they’re I don’t wanna say obsessed but they’re almost their first fault was you know that a the fame and the fortune the glory the bragging right of you know being the Wall Street Journal or New York Times Bestseller and it’s a just wrong place to start a book, and maybe you know I’d take this a little bit further than some people would, but I think a book is almost a sacred thing. There’s a and implicit trust that whenever somebody picks up a book that they’re investing their time and opening themselves to the author for the author to give them something worth having. And if your primary goal in writing the book is not for the reader at all but just for, for the bragging rights or just for the (unintelligible) success that can come from it. Then you, you’re already starting off the relationship as a manipulation cause you just, you don’t

Roy: You know Derek I agree with you, I agree with what you said 10,000% and I’m gonna go way way way out on a limb here but I want to remind you, you went down this path first okay (laughing) and what you said about how you think a book is almost a sacred thing, is it okay if I go (stuttering) down (stuttering) that road just a little bit, and if you think it’s inappropriate you can edit it out, how’s that?

Derek: Well I’m look you, you are my Ray Bard, I’m sitting at the feet of the master listening to

Roy: Alright so here’s the thing, here’s the thing and this will irritate some people and I apologize in advance, okay. But I realized many many many years ago there’s a weird thing, one day I was reading in the Gospel of John in the Bible and in the Gospel of John he skips the bigots, you know the bigots- there’s this person bigot this person who bigot this person who bigot this person is for genealogy right. I get to Matthew and then to Luke to give the genealogy of Jesus. Now John doesn’t do that, John says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God the same with in the begging is God and all things were made by him, the word and without him nothing was made that’s made. Now in that moment Derek, it hit me hey that’s basically what Genesis tells us God spoke I can get like 27 verses and Genesis Chapter 1, God said let there be light, let there be this, let there be this other thing and then finally he creates man, me and you in his own image. Now okay I’m not trying to get religious, I apologize but you’re the one that said words in a book are like sacred, well I’m just reinforcing that, I’m reinforcing that cause here’s why so god speaks a universe into existence okay and then he said and John and then the word became flesh and brought among us, and he’s basically saying Jesus in the Christian says was this thing that came out from God and was separate from God but it reveres God. So the relationship within Jesus and God the Father has always been the relationship of father and son cause Jesus was the word that went out from him when he said let there be this and let there be that and then in the book of Hebrews, I’m not trying to get weird okay but listen, in the book of Hebrews it says another word of God is living, its alive, and active, and is sharper that any two edged sword and is a discerner of the thoughts and intentions of the heart, neither is there any creature that does not manifest in his sight. Hah so in Hebrews it’s it refers to the word of God and it refers to it as it being him in his sight but all things are open and naked unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. And so it hits me ah so Jesus was the incarnate voice of God, what God said and then here’s where it really gets cool, this is the coolest part for me we were made in his image and what that means to me, to me Derek is it when you say words you are doing the thing that makes you like God, God spoke a universe into existence and we can do that too when we say words and when we write down words we’re speaking things into the mind and the imagination of another person and when they see in their mind what we want them to see, when they feel in their heart what we want them to feel, we have a spoken a new reality, we have spoken a new world, we’ve spoken all new possibilities into the mind and the heart of our fellow man. And I’m saying so when you write a book Derek it is a sacred thing, you are actually if your of the Christian faith you are being like God, you’re doing the thing that makes you like him, its you’re in the image of God when you’re creating this new possibilities and this future possible world in the mind of the reader, and you’re giving them hope. And you’re getting the step by step about how to do this, you’re giving a whole entirely new possible future, you’re speaking into existence in a miniature sort of way. I’m not saying that we’re equal to God; please don’t think I’m saying that

Derek: (laughing)

Roy: But in a real miniaturized way you know what I’m saying, we are speaking this a, this new reality and existence that if the reader decides to follow it, things would be different for them and they’re, there would be a different life, and a different outcome, and they’ll live in a different world with different circumstances. And so I’m saying yes Derek I don’t think it’s weird when you’re saying writing a book is a sacred thing, I’m saying when you’re writing a book or when you’re making a speech, or you’re communicating something to somebody, you’re doing exactly what you are made to do. You are made in the image of God and now you’re doing the thing that made him God.

Derek: Well I have never thought about that as like that I mean that, that places a whole new level of, of responsibility on us whenever we open our mouth to speak, whenever we put words on a page that we made for other people to read and especially in the form of a book where were conveying something that or imparting a piece of ourselves it moves us to take that incredibly seriously because if people accept what we’re saying. If they open their minds and their hearts and their spirits to the words there on the page, then it’s going to a, it’s going to influence to some degree it’s gonna change their life. And so if we have that influence then we should take it incredibly seriously.

Roy: And you know what Derek, my highest hope for your listeners is that everybody would do exactly that. That number 1 they are a different person than any other person on the face of the earth, number two they have had different experiences and different influences than any other person on the face of the earth, number three those experiences and those influences and the conclusions that they’ve arrived at because of those influences those have value for other people those can help other people and if they just say okay I’m gonna write this stuff down and I’m gonna put it out there for anybody that thinks its valuable; good good that’s a good and worthy thing to do, and your children will thank you and your grandchildren will thank you and your great great grandchildren will be proud that you did it and you’ve made a difference in the world that you will never know about until God tells you about it on the other side.

Derek: (laughing) An awesome place to end Roy, that is a high no- (crosstalk)

Roy: It’s been a wonderful, it’s been a wonderful few minutes Derek. Thanks for having me be here.

Derek: It’s absolutely been my pleasure, so Roy I, I am, hopefully Amazon will have the Be Like Amazon haha hopefully Amazon will have Be Like Amazon in stock I’m gonna go get a copy for myself and if anybody wants to follow Roy, it’s still every Monday the Monday Morning Memo that’s not at it monday (stuttering) and wizard academy has all kinds of incredible classes everything from copywriting to the (stuttering) risky branding and selling to the reputation tool crafter’s  was the, the class I went to last year all of that is at and if you’re in Austin on your way to the South Lakes do yourself a favor, stop by the campus they have regular business hours and it, it is worth the trip, it is, it is amazing Alice in Wonderland meets Richard Branson out west it is worth the trip by itself. Roy thanks again I really appreciate it.

Roy: Well Derek I had a delightful time I think this might be the favor- my favorite interview I’ve ever done. I appreciate you having the courage to say that a book is a sacred thing because I wouldn’t have brought that up if you haven’t.

Derek: Roy you don’t know how much that means to me, I really appreciate that, wow.

Roy: See you next time, make sure I know it the next time you’re gonna be in Austin we’ll go eat some barbecues together.

Derek: That sound like a plan

Roy: Alright.