Season 2 Episode 5: Author-Entrepreneur Joanna Penn Shares Hard-Won Advice on Book Marketing

Derek: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of The Business Book Show. Today our guest is Joanna. Now if you’ve done any kind of search on Google looking for you know how to write or how to be an author, you’ve probably come across Joanna at some point or another. Or you might be more familiar with if you like to read a thriller. She’s also a best-selling author in New York Times as well as USA Today. Writing thrillers under the pen name of JFPenn, p-e-n-n and that really is her last name. This is not a nom de plum or anything like that or some cute – her last name really is Penn. But on the other side, on the nonfiction side, she’s written a number of nonfiction books for authors. She’s an incredible creative entrepreneur. She is actually also an international speaker, and her site for authors like us is Now, you learn that they’re one of the top 10 sites for writers and self-publishers, you’ve probably come across it, I’m sure you, yourself already. And one of her books, How To Make A Living With Your Writing was one of the Ink Magazines Top 100 Business Books in 2015, so I am quite pleased that we got the opportunity to talk with one of the industry’s leading figures today. Joanna, thank you so much for your time today.

Joanna: Oh, thanks for having me on the show Derek and what a lovely introduction!

Derek:  We try, we try to make everybody feel as special as they are. And you know, publishing seems like a huge industry but whenever you start getting into it, and I guess this is probably like in any other industry. You realize that it’s kind of a small world, so I was introduced to you by way of Grant McDuling, one of Australia’s leading ghost writers. That’s how I came to find, well, that’s the way that I was personally introduced to you. Of course, I’ve come across your site and your books before that. But it’s a small world, isn’t it? That here I am in South Louisiana, I am connected to a ghost writer in Australia and then that leads me to be introduced to a writer there in the U.K.

Joanna: Oh yeah, and I think that’s what’s so awesome about publishing now at this time in history. Because with the internet we can talk to each other across the world but also we can reach readers across the world. So, when I met Grant I was living in Australia, and I was actually making most of my money in U.S. dollars, selling books to Americans and my website, you know, I was scheduling my social media into the American time zones and now, of course, I’m in Britain. And do things like this and work with people all over the world. I think where, the opportunities right now, for business writers, fiction writers and all kinds of writers, it is one of the best livings you can have because you can work across so many time zones and sell books. In, I think you can actually now, sell books in a hundred ninety countries and I’ve actually sold books in eighty-three countries.

Derek:  Oh, congratulations!

Joanna: Yeah, it gives a sense of how big the market can be now. It really is a global market for sales, as well as connections.

Derek: Yeah, it is. It’s a wonderful time to be an author. I know that if you read the industry journals and publishing related articles. A lot of publishers and traditional professionals in the industry are lamenting how much things have changed and it’s true, but I mean that’s true in any industry, that’s been true in, I mean just pick an industry, healthcare, IT, engineering. Everything has changed because of technology and if you’re still trying to do things the old way. Then yes, it’s going to be hard because every industry has fundamentally changed because of the barriers, the entry technology has brought down. But if on the other hand, you embrace it as you so ably have. Then, I think it’s a wonderful time because people like you and me don’t have to be chained to any one particular geography or in any one particular medium. You can really just create whatever kind of career that you want to have. And you have done a masterful job of that, by blending the nonfiction side, the fiction side, as well as being an entrepreneur in your own right.

Joanna: Well, I think, as we’ve said, you do have the opportunity. Publishing particularly is interesting in terms of the disruption. If you compare it to something like music because it’s quite similar and there are these creative artists. Once upon a time, you had to have a big label and they had to put your record out. It was a physical record and people got it in physical stores. There was pretty much no other way to make a living as a musician. And then, the music industry was heavily disrupted by obviously, the mp3 format with the iTunes Store. In the same way, now, publishing being disrupted by Amazon, the Kindle format, and E-books really taking off. I don’t know if you and your audience know this, but this is the 10 year anniversary. So, this year, as we record this in 2017, is the 10th year anniversary of both the iPhone and the Kindle.

Derek:  Is it really?

Joanna: Yeah, it’s kind of crazy.

Derek: I can’t.

Joanna: And you can’t, I mean you almost can’t remember a time before.

Derek: No. ( laughing )

Joanna: An iPhone or the Kindle, and if you think, if you just take those two devices even if your listeners don’t read on the Kindle, for example, but just think about the smartphone and how that has changed, how people consume information and entertainment. And how they shop, I mean, some of the big behaviors of our society are shaped by digital, not just books. Even if, you love love love print books, you possibly still shop for them online.

Derek: Absolutely.

Joanna: Yeah, most people don’t actually live near a physical bookstore. You know America far more than Britain, people do live a longer way, way from bigger stores, so people often shop online. One of the technological changes, obviously, the Kindle was the big shift for independent authors like myself where you can reach readers directly. But print-on-demand technology, particularly good for business authors because I actually sell a lot of my nonfiction books in print. If you are a business author, having a print book is definitely necessary. And print on-demand technology through a company like Create Space which is Amazon’s or IngramSpark in which would get you into bookstores and all of that type of thing. You can upload your digital files, then if someone orders the book on or or in a bookstore on Baker & Taylor. That one book would be printed and sent to the customer. So, you don’t have to warehouse, you don’t have to go to the post office. I mean, that technology on its own can be life-changing for people. Because business books over 10 years ago, you did actually have to do a print run, put it in a warehouse, and then the margin you could make on those books was tiny. Whereas, now, you can do your print run if you want to but then you can also have books available print on demand all over the world. And that’s just incredible, so I hope people are aware that it’s not just things like marketing and podcasts but it’s also distribution.

Derek:  Yeah.

Joanna: That’s exciting. So, maybe we’ll come on to audio books, for example. There’s so many possibilities.

Derek: Yeah, for someone like me with a business book bible. It’s such a niche audience, that I didn’t even try to go through a traditional publisher. I just didn’t think that they would even look at it because the market for this is so slim. And as an independent, myself, I couldn’t afford to print, to have everything created and then you take the files to a press and do a print run of a thousand books or 5,000 books. So, I did exactly what you’re suggesting. I put them up on IngramSpark and in Create Space. Now, I can compete with someone who has traditionally published, without having that huge upfront investment and having the books sit in a warehouse or my garage. Then, every time someone buys one at my website or somewhere, go run to the post office and ship it to him and be my own distribution center. I yeah, I couldn’t, I wouldn’t have even tried. I’ve had to

Joanna: (laughing)

Derek: Had to do something quite different. So, it is amazing. It lets people like us, outsource our distribution, our printing, all of that to these companies that can do upon a miss of skill and then let them take care of the mailing, and the postage, and the returns and all of that. It’s again an amazing time to be an author.

Joanna: And then a little trick, in case people aren’t doing this. But one of the things you should be doing, if you have a website and I imagine most of your audience will have a website, where they’re selling their books and services. As most business writers have other products that they like to sell, but definitely, if you’re using a link to Amazon, then join the Amazon Affiliate Program at Amazon Associates. And I’m sure the audience knows what affiliate sales are. You get a percentage of commission on things that are bought, so you get a percentage if someone buys your book, you get an extra few cents. But what’s nice about the Amazon Affiliate Program is you have a 24-hour cookie which means anything else they buy from Amazon on the next 24 hours, you actually get a percentage off, so for authors with traffic to their websites, using an Amazon Affiliate link on your website is a great way to make extra income. And you know I often tell

Derek:  I had no idea, I had no clue with that.

Joanna: Oh yeah.

Derek: Very cool.

Joanna: That’s a new thing for you. And when I first started out, my first affiliate check for like two months was $1.53. So, you can’t expect it to be big at first but now

Joanna: You know, now I make probably five grand a year from affiliate money.

Derek: Nice.

Joanna: Which is not, it’s not something you turn down, so that is just from for the last nine years. Adding every link on my website is a book link or

Derek:  Like.

Joanna: You know, things that I use on my site, things like noise canceling headphones, for example, you know anything that I use as part of my life that I could buy on Amazon. I link to it with an affiliate link and that just you know brings income over time. It’s just a little tip for people and you can set up also thinking globally. You can set up a multi-directional link that if I logged in, I’d see and if an American logs in, they see If you go to, you can set that up and put your affiliate links in there for your own book. So that’s quite handy, too.

Derek: Oh, that is too cool. Thank you for sharing that. I will absolutely jump on that. Look, Joanna, let’s talk about, let’s talk about actually writing. You’re a prolific writer, you’ve written so many books on both the nonfiction and the fiction side. Let’s talk about the nonfiction side for a minute. How do you, and you are uniquely, it’s, it’s not qualified, you are able to offer a unique perspective, what I was trying to say on the different approaches of writing a nonfiction book versus writing a fiction book. So, there are so many books and resources out there on how to write your romance novel, how to write the next best crime-thriller, how to write a novel but you’ve done both and quite successfully. Can you talk about just how that looks and compare the two.

Joanna: Well, I think nonfiction actually is easier to write. So, I’m happy for everyone listening and essentially for me, I tend to write what I’m interested in and what I think my audience would want. This is a massive difference often from nonfiction and fiction. Most nonfiction writers are writing to a market, either they already have a business, they have a target audience, maybe they have a blog about dogs and they decide right, I’m going to write a book that my audience of dog lovers will enjoy, and write a book on say, pet care for example. That’s just one example but most nonfiction writers do write to market in that way. And that is great because you can often sell more books in that direction so you have a book about business books for an audience, that you also have a podcast for, and an actual business around very, very sensible. So that’s the first thing is to think about, well, what do my audience want. My audience are authors and so the books, I’m just releasing this week, a book called How To Market A Book which is obviously something my audience wants. How to Make a Living with Your Writing is another example, so my books for nonfiction are aimed at an audience and they are titled in a way that the audience knows what they’re going to get, they understand the promise to the reader and this is probably a big issue with some nonfiction writers who aren’t famous. If you’re famous like Malcolm Gladwell (laughing) or some of the more famous nonfiction writers, you can get away with funky titles or if you have a huge marketing budget like something like Freakonomics, for example.

Derek: (laughing)

Joanna: But that, I mean, in itself actually Freakonomics is a very good word. And you know, I didn’t know who did their marketing but it’s an excellent word that they came up with and now that’s their brand. But for most nonfiction authors, the most author’s listening, you need a book title that tells the reader what they’re gonna get. You can have a smart one sentence title with a longer subtitle but you do have to be very clear and so that the audience knows what they’re getting. And the second thing is SEO’s, Search Engine Optimization. People often understand it as it relates to a website, and so you have articles about business writing, ghost writing, and stuff like that. You don’t have articles on organic tomatoes, for example.

Derek: (laughing)

Joanna: That’s just not your audience. And if you wrote a book on organic tomatoes, you probably wouldn’t sell any because nobody knows, that’s what you like if you like that. That’s the thing, you have to think about Search Engine Optimization for Amazon as a search engine, so the stats vary but Amazon is one of the top search engines around.

Derek:  Yeah.

Joanna: And people searching on Amazon, are expecting to spend money whereas people searching on Google are not necessarily expecting to spend money so this isn’t really.

Derek: That’s a great point. Yeah, just even by the platform of choice.

Joanna: Yeah.

Derek: You’ve reached a meeting with the different potential audiences.

Joanna: And this is a huge deal and also something that I’ve learned, like I the first book I wrote was called How to Enjoy Your Job or Find a New One, and it wasn’t selling very well. I was like okay, what’s going on here. Then I learned about Search Engine Optimization and I updated the book, and I re-titled it and put a new cover on it and now it’s called Career Change.

Derek: Yeah.

Joanna: And that book sells much better because people are looking for career change. So that’s a big tip. You can always find these words if you just go to, change the little search bar to say books or Kindle and then start typing in a word or a phrase. You’re gonna get a drop down and that is gonna be what people are searching for. So, that is like one of my massive top tips for nonfiction which is completely not true for fiction because people don’t go on to Amazon and start typing the name of a novel unless it’s famous. They tend to find it through categories. But the category is still important for nonfiction. But coming back to writing, cause that’s, I guess some of this is important right up front because what you don’t wanna do is write a book which is everything I know about business. You know, that’s not going to work. It needs to be specific. So, for example, I have a book which is Business for Authors, How to be an Author Entrepreneur which is a very specific book about.

Derek: Right.

Joanna: Business for a niche, and I’ve not written Business for Organic Tomato Growers, for example.

Derek: (laughing)

Joanna: I like that example, but this is the thing, when you’re thinking about the topic you’re going to write for, considering your audience and who is going to buy it and what they want is hugely important.

Derek: Right, that kind of upfront choices that determine the direction of everything else. Yeah, if you start, writing the book on Organic. I’m sorry. Organic Tomatoes, as we would say down here in South Louisiana.

Derek:  That’s gonna be a very different book than, you, putting your mind towards writing something on your particular niche.

Joanna: Yeah, that’s gonna save you a lot of time, if you sort that out up front. I think probably one of the massive things for nonfiction is that it doesn’t need to be a magnum opus.

Derek: Yes.

Joanna: Unless you’re going to be a speaker and people, well, even then I actually think the trend for nonfiction books is getting shorter.

Derek: Yeah.

Joanna: And it’s much better, actually, to have multiple short books than it is to have a really long book. One example is my book, How to Make a Living with Your Writing. It’s very short, it’s like 27,000 words or something. It’s by far, my top selling nonfiction book because it’s got a hell of a title.

Derek: Yeah.

Joanna: Whereas, the book, Business for Authors: How to be an Author Entrepreneur, that doesn’t sell. You know, that sells a fraction of the sales of How To Make a Living with Your Writing, partly because people don’t wanna run a business, they wanna make a living, so the title is very important but also it distills a lot of information into a short book. I think people really like that, so that’s a good tip for people as well. You don’t need to think about one book that contains everything you know, it would be better to split it into shorter ones.

Derek: Ah, I think that is an incredibly important point. In fact, I use that almost word for word in one of the sections in my book. That your book, your business book that you want to write, doesn’t have to be a magnum opus. It doesn’t have to be the distillation of your life’s work because that’s writing your book from the inside out, which is fine for fiction or if you want to do a memoir or an autobiography. But whenever you’re writing for the nonfiction market, you need to not write, but at least market, package, and present your book from the outside in. And people would much rather read a shorter book, that is targeted to whatever is on their mind or whatever they’re trying to do versus a huge book that is everything that you know about writing and publishing and being an author. You could have, I’m sure probably taken, quite a few pieces of the different books that you’ve written. Put them into a magnum opus but it wouldn’t have sold as well as having a number of targeted books that speak to one particular topic or even more of a need than trying to present everything you know all at one go.

Joanna: Yeah, and you have to think about profit as well because if you have shorter books you can price them a bit lower because they’re not huge but you can have more of them. And the way certainly, if you self-publish and you make 70% royalty. If I put a book, a business book up for $4.99, four dollars, ninety-nine which is a reasonable price for a nonfiction short book. You can make four dollars profit on that as an e-book and also as a print book, it’s much more less you can probably print that for two dollars, even on Create Space. If you’re speaking, for example, the How to Make a Living with Your Writing, when I do workshops, I will include a print copy as part of the ice of the workshop even though it’s print-on-demand, others order a ton of them because it’s so short and it’s very affordable. These are the types of things you can think about. If you go shorter you can probably make a higher profit and you can use your book in much more of a sort of a marketing way and it’s quicker so there’s just so many benefits.

Derek: So that kind of, addresses the up front stuff, whenever you want to write a book, these are some of the big ideas that you should start with. So let’s say that our author in question, that they’ve got the right direction, they’ve got the right mentality, the right frame of mind whenever they’re approaching their project, they need to have their market in mind, they need to be writing something very targeted and focused. So say that we’ve got that, what would be your next pif of (laughing) excuse me, piece not pif, would be your next piece of advice for them?


Joanna: Well, in terms of writing, I use software called Scrivener.

Derek:  Oh yes.

Joanna: Yeah, which I think.

Derek: The author’s software of choice.

Joanna: Yeah, I think most professional authors who do this for a living who are under 60. (laughing)

Derek: (laughing)

Joanna: You know will probably use it, so I know a lot of older authors which is like no, I still handwrite my manuscripts but I’m not. So using Scrivener for nonfiction, in particular, I mean I use it for fiction as well but for nonfiction, in particular, it’s like magic because what you can do is drag and drop the different chapters. So the first thing I do with nonfiction is in Scrivener. If you think about it, that like a file path with, where you can just put lots of single lines that kind of like headers so and I say okay so this is my let’s take the book How To Market A Book which is out this week you know I’m not okay I’m gonna write a book on marketing or you know what are the some of the chapters that are gonna go in there, and I literally just bring them into this Scrivener document. And I might do this like I’ve got about 4 different Scrivener documents at that point for a ton of different books that I, I have are not even on my schedule but whenever I get ideas I can go just dump them in that folder. So with the marketing book, it’s like okay so paid advertising on Amazon that has to be a chapter so I put that in, Podcasting that’s another chapter you know those are 2 very different things, those are 2 chapters. You know the marketing mindset that would be another chapter so you, you basically just come up with your chapter headings but you don’t have to worry about the order that the book will be in. And then the other thing I like about Scrivener is you can change the flags on each of this kind of little mini documents within the project so it’s much easier to sit down and write one chapter on podcasting so just say write, I’m gonna sit down now and write 2,000 words on podcasting and then I can or change my little flag on Scrivener to like yellow and then once all of [ Crosstalk at 00:24:58 ]

Derek:  And I,

Joanna: Yes, sorry.

Derek: I hate to interrupt while you’re on a roll, Joanna but is frag a British slang or is that something Scrivener I haven’t discovered. What’s it for

Joanna: Flag a flag, f-l-a-g

Derek: Flag, flag sorry the [crosstalk at 00:25:09]

Joanna: They’re like are like a color coding or marker, whatever you, but on Scrivener, they are called flags.

Derek: Flag, yeah.

Joanna: Yes.

Derek: Oh I heard, sorry. (laughing)

Joanna: Yes, sorry (laughing) so I change the color, so basically I end up with a Scrivener document,  full of these chapters which of I’ve marked yellow which means there’s something in them and it’s half decent. And then I look at the whole book as a whole, and I start to drag and drop the chapters around into a journey that makes sense because this is so important for nonfiction as well as fiction. You have to take the reader on a journey, you can’t just be like you know Chapter 1: Podcasting, no, you have to ease people into a book and thru you know an Introduction or however you’re going to setup your chapters. So you can drag and drop things around on Scrivener and then what I do once I’ve written that nasty first draft is I actually print out and I do my first edit by hand. And so I actually on pen with paper.

Derek: Yeah.

Joanna: And go through and sort of scribble things and handed it. And put all my changes back into Scrivener and I might repeat that process depending on what needs doing. But generally, I get my structure pretty right just within Scrivener and then I go to an editing process which we can talk about. But my main tip is use Scrivener, sort out your table of contents, fill in the table of contents and then juggle it around to make it a journey for the reader.

Derek: Yeah, Joanna, let me take a minute to talk about just how important that process is. So I call it, letting the writing the book organically, so what you’re doing intuitively is probably because you’re a naturally a creative person with a creative mind. So what you have, what you are doing is creating the bits and pieces, and then stringing them together then making sense of all the material that you have. Whenever I’m working with the business authors, coaching or editing or ghostwriting, what I found that’s so many, and I don’t know if this is, if this is unique to business authors or if this is just a problem that most people have but they try to start with the structure of the book. This is how the book should flow, this is the logical sequence of steps, this is what chapter 1 should be, this is what chapter 2 should be, so they start with the structure and then they try to fill in the content. And it’s just so much harder to do that way, it seems like that should be the way you build a book but actually, the smarter way is what you do, which is to start with all your thoughts and the content and then you work backward. Okay, now that I have all of these how can I put it in such a way that it makes sense, how can I find the structure that is natural to the content that I have versus let me create a structure for the book and then force my content into that structure.

Joanna: Yeah, and I think coming back to the journey of the reader is so important because many people who are, your clients are business owners and business listeners, they know so much. And if you know so much, your order will never be the order that somebody new to this will want it. Because you know they are behind you in terms of their knowledge and you have to, sort of ramp them into that education. So what you think might be the most important thing and you have to put it in chapter 1,  probably needs to go further into the book, once you’ve kind of worked up to that. The other thing, I think that business writers often forget is that people want personal stories to anchor the

Derek: Yes.

Joanna: Information into like you know, even my books, How To Make a Living With Your Writing is not just bang bang bang. Here’s how you to make a living with writing, it’s my story of how I do it and that’s also something that you can weave in to the beginning because it’s like people need to know why they care and people need to know why you’re the right person to share this and so also, I also find that the introduction to a book is often the last thing that you write because you don’t necessarily know what’s in it. (laughing)

Derek: (laughing)

Joanna: And things have changed by the end. So these are things that can emerge from the book as well. And that would also make it much richer, I mean my experience is that, as you might be an outliner, you might have that structure in your head, but until you actually write those chapters or know that you do into views with people and get transcripts it may be that buried within the 6th hour of the interview is something that actually ends up being the first chapter

Derek: Yeah.

Joanna: Because it’s so right for anchoring the book into personal experience and you can’t necessarily find that until you’re partially through the process. So I think for most people, it’s okay, you can be a control freak with your business.

Derek: (laughing)

Joanna: You can run your business hardcore but with your creative process, you do need to allow for emergence of themes and stories and stuff that comes up as you go through the writing process.

Derek: Yeah, because the act of creating a book is fundamentally different than writing a report or writing a white paper, or writing an academic paper, a thesis, because with those things there is a structure and it is you know pretty cut and dry but the nature of a book is more fluid. We expect a book to be more comprehensive and with something as small as a white paper or a market report or something, you can just focus on the information. But with a book, the size of a book, that is, it starts becoming its own animal and so if you try to impose your own structure and order like you said you try to be a control freak, the book is gonna push back. It’s almost its own personality, its own entity and you have to give it some space to breathe. You have to allow, I forgot who it was, but they said that the act of creation shapes not only the creation, but the creation shapes the creator. You have to allow the book to change you a little bit and I think that that’s for you and me because we’re professional writers we, we’re okay with that. But I think that’s a pretty new experience for a lot of people who maybe haven’t really done a whole lot of creative or a creative work like writing for a living.

Joanna: Oh well, my opinion is that business is incredibly creative, so if people listening don’t think they are creative, I believe the word creative absolutely applies to those who have created a business, those who have created jobs or created wealth, or if you’ve created any product in the world. There’s this myth you know that creative is just applied to people who write or do music or paint or whatever but you know to me the business is incredibly creative. So I will embrace that, and say okay if you, you’re a business owner and you want to write a book, you created a business from your head, you’ve

Derek: Yeah.

Joanna: Created assets from your head. This is creating an asset from your head, it’s just an asset that looks like a book. (laughing) I suppress you an asset that might look like a team of people or a product or whatever else you’ve created in the world. So I agree with you, I want people to try and think about this as exactly the same as creating anything else in the world. You know creating a relationship, let’s say, those of you who are in partnerships to whatever is you have to put the work in and then the results of it is something that you may never have expected to happen. So that’s kind of like the way I like to think of it, is yeah you, I actually learn what I think, through the act of writing a book

Derek: Yeah.

Joanna: Which is you know, can be part of the excitement of the journey but yeah, I understand that it can be scary for people, it certainly used to be scary for me. I used to work as a business consultant, I used to implement accounts payable into large corporate. So, I’ve never thought I was creative in that traditional sense. And look how things turned out, (laughing) so your life can change when you write a book.

Derek: That’s an amazing point and I love the idea of looking at a business or a project or even a relationship as it, by engaging in it. Things happen and you have to adapt and then take that into your plans. You can’t say I’m going to have a business, this is how it’s going to run, this is what’s going to happen. You know, the mantra or the new word for the last years has been fit it, everything has to

Joanna: Oh yeah. (laughing)

Derek: Has to fit it. Yeah, but with that, all that really is just you have to adapt to changes as it happens, you’ve got to roll with the punches as, how you’d say it in the old school. And so people in business or in projects or in the company they know how to do that, they would have to in order to, in order to survive and be successful but you’re right they don’t often take that same thinking and apply it to a book that as you write things and you uncover things or you, you know start pulling information together, the idea for it, the things that happen are going to change and so you have to change the structure of your book, you have to change your expectations accordingly.

Joanna: Hmm.

Derek: Well, Joana, I would love to sit here and talk for hours more because you got that kind of information but I know it’s getting a little bit late in the evening for you in the UK so I think that we’re probably gonna wrap it up here. Is there anything that you’d like to leave the listeners with?

Joanna: Sure, so if you liked the podcast, so come on over and join me on my show at The Creative Penn Podcast which is available on iTunes and Stitcher, and all the usual places. I’m at episode 320 now, after years of podcasting.

Derek: Wow!

Joanna: I know. It’s kind of crazy. (laughing)

Derek: That’s amazing.

Joanna: It’s a weekly show on a Monday and I talk all about creative business, as well as writing and publishing and book marketing and all that good stuff. Also, come on over to and you can get a free e-book and video series, all about writing and publishing and book marketing and all of that type of things, both fiction and non-fiction if people are interested. And if you have any questions, I’m on Twitter, @thecreativepenn. Penn with the double N.

Derek: Penn with the double N, that’s better.

Derek: Joanna, you have been, that’s generous, just those offers in and on themselves are generous of you. I really appreciate you, coming on and sharing so much of your experience and your accumulated knowledge with everyone on the show. I am looking forward to your new book that’s just coming out this week. I’ll go get a copy of it here in just a few minutes.

Joanna: Thank you so much for having me on the show, Derek.

Derek:  It’s absolutely a pleasure.