SEASON 2 EPISODE 1- The Business Book Podcast – Ray Bard

Derek: Good morning ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Business Book Podcast. So I’m pretty honored today that our guest is Ray, so before I give you his professional background let me tell you how- he doesn’t even realize that he’s personally connected to me. So one of the other guests on the season, on my podcast this season is Roy Williams the Wizard of Ads now Roy was my virtual mentor, he didn’t even know he was my mentor but whenever I got first into the writing business, I was a copywriter and Roy the Wizard of Ads his books the Wizard of Ads, the Secret of Ads, More Secrets of the Wizard of Ads, well I mean those were some of the, some of my bibles, they were my guiding ideas on how a copywriter should approach the business. Well it just so happens that Roy’s so my me- my virtual mentor Roy, here’s one of his mentors is Ray so Ray not only, is not only Roy’s mentor but also Roy’s publisher so Ray published Roy’s early books the Wizard of Ads through his company Bard Press. Now Bard Press is one of the, well it’s one of the most exclusive business publishers in the business they’ve a, in 13 years Ray through Bard press has published 7 books, half of them have been on Bestseller’s List, 2 has sold over a million copies including one of my favorite books actually I read it before I even realized that it was published by Bard Press, so one thing and if you’re in any kind of business or sales, you’ve come across the One Thing a incredible book. Then also if you’re in business anywhere you’ve probably also come across the Little Red Book of Selling, it’s the Best Selling Sales Book of All Time more than 3 million copies sold, also published through Bard Press. But his latest book is actually is a personal hobby of his that he has turned into a beautiful book it’s called Fired Up Selling Great Quotes to Inspire, Energize, and Succeed and even though it has selling in the title, you know it is, I am holding a copy in my hand and it is so much more than just a sales book it is a nice inspiration book. So if you love quotes at all, if you like being inspired, if you like being motivated, and if you love going through and just reading beautiful words you owe it to yourself to go grab a copy of her that’s selling. So Ray graciously agreed to be on the show today to talk about, I invited him I’d like him to talk about this book but more in general the whole idea of whenever we’re in the publishing business, whenever we’re writing how do we think about the most important person in the room, and that person is of course our reader; so all of that to say Ray welcome to the show and thank you for your time.

Ray: Derek it’s great to be with you today, and let me go back to just a brief agenda of what you said about Roy and I

Derek: Please, please

Ray: Roy is as much my mentor as he is mine

Derek: (laughing)

Ray: I’ve learned so much of Roy over the years, you know one of the great lectures of my publishing model is I only publish a few books; I think maybe 30 over I don’t know last how many years, many years. And because of that with a lot of these I’ve authors I’ve published 2 and 3, I think I’ve published 5 of Roy’s books, 4 or 5 of Roy’s books and so I have this, it’s been my great pleasure to get to know these people and some of these are some of my closest friends also so and I’ve learned so much from Roy reading his Monday Morning Memo and you know obviously reading his books cause I was involved in publishing them so, I just wanna make sure to clarify that. And so let’s go back to the selling part and I don’t know when it’s been many years now, I began to think you know I had a sales background a long long time ago and then I published a number of sales and marketing books and you but when you think about selling yourself you know there’s the Dan your Pink Book you know where he’s in the book he talks you know he says we’re all in sales now and a

Derek: Right

Ray: Robert Lee Simpson you know hundred years ago or more or longer said everyone lives by selling something and so were if whether or not we’re doing it verbally or whether or not we’re doing it print we’re in a preplace of business and I think when you think about us as authors whether or not we have someone working for as like a publisher or whether or not we’re self-publishing our first sales job is to sell the book, is to get someone to take it home and read it and so that’s a big sale. If that doesn’t happen and so then you get back to the design of the cover, the title and the subtitle and that’s a whole conversation sometime Derek about, about choosing those cause those may chuck up you know that’s what I call a first editorial dot, and that’s the big dot that you connect throughout the book about all the other editorial and content pieces, and so the- I began to think about why we’re really selling when we’re selling books and very quickly it was obvious to me that we’re not selling paper or ink or any of that we are what constitutes a book. We are really selling information you know that was the first very obvious that okay we’re selling information, concepts, ideas, and so on and my next conclusion pretty quickly was well what if people don’t pay a whole lot just for information there’s something more that they want and what struck me next was daily was a lot business books and personal development books areas that I publish it. It occurred to me that they were selling how to and when you look at guide books almost all a great number of business books a personal development books you know there’s seven its Seven Habits yeah we go down the long list of books that have numbers on them which you know give you steps or phases to go through and the promise that you’re making in the book usually in the book title is if you give me 20 or 25 bucks you know and follow this you know follow my quote program you’ll get this result. So people were looking for results for safe play and then what you know finally hit me and this is the big thing that people are really looking for, looking for hope. They’re looking if you give them information, and show them how to do something they’re hoping that your promise is true, if when they do that that they hope for change, not only change but positive change. If it’s a diet book they hope to lose 30 pounds or whatever it is. There’s no, that’s not a joke but a little cliché in the book business you know the very big big ocean of books are for diet section money and almost all of those

Derek: (laughing)

Ray: have two, those are almost all have 2 books. And it’s a when you’re looking, if you’re an author and you’re looking for big you know felt need where people you know it’s a big ocean of ocean market there, you know think about sex and money. Of course business books you know fit in the money, almost all business books are like either brought us sends to the word or helping people to become you know more to help improve their financial life. And so it’s we’re selling hope, and if we’re not selling hope in a book I (stuttering) if we’re not selling hope in a business book or a personal development book we’re in trouble I think. It’s a we’re not really selling information, information by itself just doesn’t have a whole lot of value and so the last one, I had to, I used this three it’s one of the workshops and seminars and stuff I’ve worked with my clients I guess this three a long time and I kept thinking oh list this there has to be one other because I would see books like Freakonomics you know there’s not well there’s information there certainly, there’s those steps and for Freakonomics they don’t give you any seven step plans or the five keys or any of that, and there’s not a lot of hope you know in Freakonomics, or if you look

Derek: (laughing)

Ray: at Glide little book, if you look at Tipping point, or if you look at Work it Over to Mike, shelf that if you look at Blake, I think Blake is about 350 pages long it’s, it’s a chubby book and it’s so you know there’s you know it has some of those edit but there’s certainly enough a lot of how to in Blake. So I began to think of those and what clicked for me then is we’re selling entertainment and

Derek: Yeah

Ray: And so when you think you know when we read Freakonomics you know those are fun to read, I mean they’re you know they’ve almost always got a back end to an instant, they make a stake, they procure it, they give us some surprises, they’re kind of countered into it to even oddities and when you look at Gladwell too I think when you, that’s when you get into style the style in rowdy they’ve really been a good writer, a good work smith and I think it’s reason for writer who really developed your craft is just to keep becoming a better, just keep becoming a better writer and the way to do that is obviously to write and the and because Gladwell is a pleasure to read because his stylistic ability is a pleasure to read

Derek: Yeah

Ray: And so when I you know when I work with authors or work with a book or encourage other people to begin to think about them, I ask them to go back and to look at those four different chunks of information, hope, results, and entertainment and to see what their mix is. To see whether or not they have enough entertainment in there, or certainly whether or not they have enough hope in there.

Derek: Yeah and I forgot to a, I forgot to introduce is that you shared this, this kind of summary of this, of this things and for everyone listening, I’ll put it in the cernates so that you can see how Ray has it laid out here information the whole results and then pleasure and then he’s got you know the method but I love the other column he has up here about the tools and techniques so all the different ways that you can convey information, all the different ways that you can convey hope, the different ways that you can present solutions, and the different ways that you can make it pleasurable or entertaining or interesting a

Ray: But when you think

Derek: You know one of the

Ray: Derek, I’m sorry Derek I was gonna ask you a question, I was gonna flip the interview table. From your huge amount of writing experience when I go in your website and look at all the books you worked on you know that’s just so impressive

Derek: Oh thank you

Ray: And so when you worked on with all these authors over the years does that ring true to you, to be able to look and to do some analysis early on as you’re beginning to develop that manuscript about whether or not you have all these different elements?

Derek: You know I mean now that I have this tool I can frame it like that, but the shorthand for me or I guess kind of the first couple of steps I took down this road is I would always tell my authors that in great business books and that’s really what we’re going for whenever I work with someone, we don’t just want something that just has their name on the cover something that just provides you know some information, we want a great business book that’s the goal. And great business books are both informative so there’s actual value there, it’s not just something that you read, and it’s you know it’s like cotton candy there’s, it looks like there’s a lot there but there’s really this there’s nothing it’s just fluff; but we don’t want that, we want something meaty, something they can sink their teeth into, something that’s gonna help them with the problem that they have but on the other hand nobody enjoys reading an academic textbook, I mean whenever you know I was in college or grad school, if I really enjoyed the subject, if I loved the subject I might read you know extra more than the professor assigned, but in most of my classes if you know they assigned a certain chapter 3 that’s the only chapter I read because it was so dense and you just slug through, but when you had to read things 3 and 4 times to even figure out what they’re saying so even though you know a textbook is on the other end of this fraction there’s a lot of information in there, it’s very meaty, very weighty, but nobody enjoys it. Great business books have to be both informative and entertaining, or at least interesting and so whenever I start looking at you know at the four, the four things that you’re selling in a, in a business book I see where the books that I’ve ghost written or that I’ve edited, or that I’ve coached other authors through, the results are something that they need, they- there are plans to get to, we have to make it interesting to read or else they’re never gonna get through it all of them want to you know provide some kind of information otherwise why are you buying the book, but the hope part is I think, I think that’s the part that I, I’ve never really, I just I’m just blessed that I worked with a wonderful group of people who are excited about the teachers so that hope kind of naturally infuses itself into, into the book. But looking back I mean those are the people that really that they’ve done wonderful things with their book because their the book is based on the idea that life can be better that there is something greater out there and if you just know how to look and have a couple of ideas about which direction to start running in that you can enjoy that. I don’t know if that, if that answers to your question Ray but at least I guessed around the edges.

Ray: Well it does, it does Derek it’s good. And then I think I just think here’s the next step for me when I get in and begin to work with authors and a lot of times when I get that first draft manuscript that maybe 20 or 30 page chapters and, and again you’re asking a lot for people, and particularly business people, whether or not you’re talking about managers or you’re talking about entrepreneurs, or you’re talking about sales people, a whole lot of those people have ADD and you combine that

Derek: (laughing)

Ray: with crazy schedule that we all have now, is they just don’t have a lot of time to read. And you know there are book lovers like you and I that take time to read you know we do, it’s we have to do it or we’re really in trouble. But for most the world that’s not true you know they you know pay 20 or 25 or 30 dollars for a book to you know to stick if that promise that hope that’s been sold on the cover is there in the book, and so when you’re selling, when I think of someone if you’re stayed in an airport bookstore or if you’re giving a speech and the book is being sold at the back of the room or if it’s set up at retail bookstore or downtown, or wherever it might be that there’s a sales pitch on the back, on the back cover on the flap usually but when you open that table of contents that’s the bridge between editorial and marketing, and I spent a whole lot of counts working with my author just polishing and polishing that, because the role and the function of that table of contents is not only to inform with clarity that’s the editorial part, but secondly to persuade, to persuade someone to take the next step and that’s usually to go in and look  some time at the book but if I think if our readers, if your listeners would think a lot of times they close up the book and walk out to the check-out counter with their visa card after they’ve read the table of contents and so a lot of times that’s  the decision port you either begin to do a bit more discovery read about the author or get a feel for the book or you put it back in the shelf or you go to the check-out counter, so that table of content just keep but if they flip in in between that’s where I think the design and having a rover ably open design and shorter chapters and shorter paragraphs and we’re not going to him anyway we’re to be in the middle most but the I think the we’re back to almost you and I were talking briefly before about what are the things that people love about quotes is that they’re short and people can grab the concept, the gem of the wisdom there and so I’m down to the place now, a lot of times I recommend authors ideally a chapter should be 5 to 8 pages and so that someone can spend you know 5 to 10 minutes reading that at night or whatever before they start you know prepping up their eyelids they can put the bookmark and end the chapter and head off to dreamland knowing that they’ve, they’ve made and accomplishment, they’ve read one more chapter there and if you ask people to read 20 or 30 page chapters you’re gonna lose people because the selling that you’re doing again is getting you’re selling them, you’re persuading them to turn the page and read the next chapter or read the next page and then you’re selling them all over again if it’s a 250 page book you have 250 sales presentations to give.

Derek: (laughing) I’ve never heard of it that way, that’s funny. (laughing) I have heard before that the purpose of the, let’s see the purpose of one sentence is to get them to read the next, the purpose of the, of a paragraph is to get them to read the next paragraph, the purpose of the page is to get them to read the next page, the purpose of the chapter the next chapter, and the purpose of the book is to get them to read the next book. (laughing)

Ray: Yes or that I think of it in terms of selling to market it again. I think the purpose is when they finish reading and maybe even before halfway through or (unintelligible) the way through if they purchase that one, they would think I need to buy this for my 6 employees, or I need to give it to all my clients, or I need to give it to Sally Sue when she graduates her college next month, or you know whatever. They begin to think who, who else or you know could use the book or maybe they more to build a class around it or whatever they begin to think. Wow this is fantastic what else, how else can I use this, and then a lot of times I think it’s state phenomena, you know when we go to a new restaurant and we just love it I mean we fall in love with this place and we start telling everybody we know, you know we get on Facebook about it, you know we tell all our buddies at work and so that’s same, if a book is really good they will have the same experience with the book and there’s where you get back to the very best selling of all and that’s word of mouth. And so that’s one of the things I continually think about in the book is how, how to you need to know what valuable for and to create as much valuable, as much value as possible, so that person becomes so excited about it that they’re gonna become an evangelist for you.

Derek: Right, Ray can we shift gears slightly and go from talking about you know great business books in general to talking statistically about the new and again I hesitate to say business book because it’s so much more than that, but let’s talk about Fired Up Selling, I mean this is near and dear to your heart on a personal level, so let’s talk about you know where, why, where you came up with the idea and what you’re trying to accomplish with the book and what you feel like that you’re selling the reader.

Ray: Well it began get me to the you know lead the ender, it began as a hobby, I started collecting books well a long long time ago you know I was, I think I started collecting on my hard drive having 12 or 15 years ago you know actually storing them. But before that I’d buy quote books you know from my, on my own personal (unintelligible) and then a lot of our authors as you know authors like to use quotes a lot of those at books and so it was a resource and I always enjoyed working with all this on that part, sometimes I’d be the quote researcher, I have, I have to go find the best quote and so you know I had a ton of them on my hard drive and this has probably been 6 or years ago and I thought why not do a little quote book and so I went to Amazon thinking just to see what the competition is, do a little quick market research, and there were just a hundreds of, I mean I already should’ve known that, I’ve got a bunch of books on my shelf, well then my own shelf.

Derek: (laughing) You were the (crosstalk)

Ray: I never set another bright eye book idea but I still kept collecting quotes and then after probably 2 or 3 years I stopped again and asked myself you know who really needs quotes, who more than anyone else you know needs inspiration and encouragement, and I came up with 2 categories, the first we’re sales people and the other one is entrepreneurs, because those are the folks that are you know they get kicked in the gut you know they’re swimming upstream, they’re having people tell them you know you’re being delusional there’s no way you can do that and so they really have to build up that inner courage to keep doing what their passion is and what they believe in and I believe you know inspirational quotes and good quotes are essential brain food, they help us frame and reframe our thinking and there’s a quote in fact we have it, it’s a Norman Vincent Peale quote we have it on the very back of the book and it’s a really short one again it’s “change your thoughts and you change your world – Norman Vincent Peale” and so that’s what for me quotes were instill or about even more as they provide us a way if we have something happened to us or experience as not so good, or we’re kind of getting down or whatever, the brain had a new thought through a powerful quote can help us reframe that and think differently. And then I for getting up in the morning or we’re out in a walk and we’re you know we’ve got some open head space, a quote can help us; it can help us start a thought or a plan. It can help us actually frame, frame our thinking and so that’s what got me started and then after that I had you know I got off into the idea about how to actually put together a book and we can tackle a bit more about it later if you want it but I created, I used a crowd sourcing model. And then I obviously created a project called the part of selling project and let me shift over, let me take this, let me pull this selling thread that where we’re using this for a moment and god you’d, you’d made sure that just a moment ago about how, how the selling relates to that quote we’ve been talking about then that is selling, let me pull, well let me just do the thumbnail on the project cause it leads into this, ah so the dilemma that I have is I have this huge number of quotes and so I was first thinking I need to put a thousand or so in the book, to really give it a lot of value. And then a friend of mine told me no no no you know we were having a conversation and he held up his finger now what’s the number 1. And I said okay what does that mean, he said one per page, and I thought about 30 seconds and I said you’re right I didn’t do one per page in the book, some of them do have and the most on any one page is three, because what I wanted people to do when they experience the book is to read the quote and to set with it and just to let them absorb what that author is sharing with them. And so I thought well that’s 250 or 300 quotes, that’s even more of a challenge so I had this huge dilemma about what to do then, how to pick these, and so I went back and forth through a number weeks and then I decided to find some people to help me judge this quotes you know and so I already had a name in the book business we call them reviewers or readers, and I thought well that’s not a very good name it doesn’t have any magic and so I came up with word quote judges and so what does a quote judge do, they judge quotes (laughing)

Derek: (laughing)

Ray: I mean it’s pretty plain and so you know I asked for Roy and some of our  other friends to you know help me find some quote judges, and so they put it out in their world and well wind up with more than 1,200 people around the world studying out to be quote judges and my intent there was to these are my customers, they were sales managers, sales people, people professionals in the field, consultants, trainers, bloggers, and then a few quote lovers in there, I had some friends who love quotes and I knew they’d wanna be a part of the project too. And so my intent was rather than me second guess what my customers wanted, I’m just gonna go ask them what they wanted. I mean what a concept, ask your customers what they want (laughing)

Derek: (laughing)

Ray: Yes and so

Derek: So we forget that as author’s I think because with writing a book we write, the way I tell my, my authors is that we write books from the inside out, right? We start within our own mind then we try to get all this ideas out but whenever we’re selling a book we have to flip it, because your readers are coming from the outside in, they have to get through the packaging and you know talking about the cover and the promise, then the copy and the table of contents, they have to get through all of that before they actually get into the heart of the book itself. So it’s I mean it’s funny but whenever its we’re writing a book it actually is a pretty noble concept to say oh shit what did they want to buy (laughing)

Ray: Yes it is, and it’s you know the thing you’re a publisher is a publishing industry and I can’t do you know there’s fiction and non-fiction world and the fiction world is another whole different world I think you approach that in a whole different way than when you’re working in non-fiction and certainly this is

Derek: Oh yeah, right

Ray: But the, but even still there you know a lot of times authors, fiction authors would go out and do readings on small groups and they would have people read their, their manuscript early on and listen to that feedback and book world has been doing that a long time and most of them your houses will sit down a manuscript 2 to 3 quote experts in the field. And a lot of them those are not people in the marketplace, they’re real customers, those are experts in the field. And so I decided to do something much larger than that you know we had a more than a thousand people ready to go. And so what I did, twice a week or Tuesday and Thursday morning early I’d send out a collection of 15 quotes and for each one of them we were using survey marking for each one of them. They would read the quote very quickly and they would hit a button ok, good, or great and they’d go through and it would take them usually about 5 or 6 minutes to give their verdicts on this 15 quotes and over the life of the project which lasted a year, they judged a thousand a five quotes and for the book, there are 324 in the book. We picked the very best to go on the book because each of one they’re voting, each of those quotes have a score now and so this is what I was getting to and I needed to kind of kill in that background to give you the number one quote and so here’s the number one quote, in fact this quote was voted number 1 three different times, it was at the very beginning of the project that I put this in one of the collections it was voted number 1 that week and then later I can’t remember what in between we did another round include some to topple it was voted number one there, then to the very end of the project (coughing) excuse me Derek we get you know kind of like a sweet sixteen we did over you know a face off deal and it was voted number one there. And here it is- people won’t remember what you say, people won’t remember what you do, but people will forever remember how you made them feel.

Derek: Yeah

Ray: You know who said that

Derek: No idea

Ray: Maya Angelou, oh what

Derek: Ah

Ray: and a very very good poet, and so

Derek: Maya Angelou is amazing

Ray: And so here, these sales people, sales managers, you know consultants, trainers, bloggers, selected thoughts quote as the number one. And so when you take that quote you know people won’t remember what you do or people won’t remember what you say, people won’t remember what you do, but they will forever remember how you made them feel and when you think about that, that’s not only certainly that’s a key to selling because part of that I trust in fact one of the things we asked people during the project the year well I gave them a list of 8 or 10 or 12 different cards of a sales people and asked them to rate them and trust was number 1 that these people were saying trust is the number 1 card in for sales person. And so that’s part of how you make people feel, you know people feel trusting, you also make people feel important, and you do have a listing and a lot of other words and there’s a bunch of you know there’s a bunch of quotes in the book about that. And so let’s look at those four, that quote is there information there? Well is there some concept there? You know what’s the big idea? My shorthand for information is what’s the big idea? And I think for that quote the big idea is life is an emotional experience not a logical experience. And when we’re presenting information a lot of times we get over end of that left brain and we try to present it logically

Derek: Yeah

Ray: But how people experience life and I’m underlining twice the word experience, they experience that emotionally and I think that’s in big letters I think what Maya Angelou is telling us here

Derek: So Ray is the fact that there’s something in the mix there reminds me of one of my favorite quotes and I forget the author at the top of my head but it said we are not, we are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

Ray: Yes I think that was Pierre de Chardin I think; I think it’s his quote.

Derek: Because it speaks exactly to what you’re talking about there that we think in terms of you know the physical world and facts and figures and statistics but a life whenever we think about life, real life it is not over there in statistics and in math land it is in emotions and the feelings, the highlights of our lives are not about whenever, it’s about how we felt whenever something happened.

Ray: Yes, yes exactly and so I think that’s a big part here and then you know the how to, you know I think it’s not explicit here in Maya’s little quote and I don’t I haven’t counted the words to be interesting to count words probably what 20 words there something like that, it’s not a super short quote nor is it a long one but it does they pique your curiosity to say okay how do I do that? How do I make people feel and how do I want to make them feel? You know when my, when I call on my kite on sales person when I call on my sales people how do I want them to feel, or if I’m writing this paragraph or this chapter or this book, how do I want people to feel? And when I’m writing this email how do I want people to feel when they finish? And so the it’s I think it teach you and then I think you begin when you’re typing emails I think one big thing is how often do you use them, the word I as opposed to the word you, that’s

Derek: (laughing)

Ray: and it’s amazing when you become conscious of that and it sounds like you’re your when you start reading other peoples emails it’s amazing how many times they use the word I and how few of the times they use you

Derek: That reminds me, it reminds me of you know in Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends That Influence People even back in the was that the 1930’s or 40’s he said that

Ray: 36 (laughing)

Derek: He said that my belle did a survey and the most used English word you know whenever people on the telephone was I, so that is, that would mean, so every time I you know I write an email, I go back and I look at how many paragraphs begin with the letter I and it makes me stop and think about how much of this am I writing from, from my point of view and how much of this, is there some way to make this more about the recipient, I don’t wanna be the person on the telephone where the number 1 word is I.

Ray: You nailed it, you nailed it Derek it’s that is so true I didn’t know about that, that’s very interesting I’m not, I’m not surprised at that and I guess I think probably true with the emails now you’re trying to angle a lot of other play a lot of telephone, communication is the email form now and

Derek: Right

Ray: You mentioned a, you used the word frame before and you’re not gonna have a very long conversation about this, one thing that fascinated me for a number of years I keep my books and thinking about it is the idea of framing and what we do with framing, and particularly how we frame our words and what that framing does to the experience. First of all the outer experience, with the people whether or not that they’re a spouse or children, what we’re doing in a book speech we’re giving whatever it is and then secondly that internal experience that’s stuff talk about how we frame our own self thoughts and frame and reframe and a lot of that

Derek: Yeah

Ray: reframing and getting becoming to where and conscious about how we can reframe, and so I think the biggest frame of all, it’s what I call super frames, and I think for me the biggest super frame of all is the one whether or not you’re coming out of me which is an I the way you express me is the word I and the flip it around 180 degrees and it’s you. And I think is that I find myself even though I’ve become, I’ve been aware of that for some very long time now and I try to practice it but I find myself regularly, almost every day slipping back into that me frame and not flipping it out there enough and putting the frame around, well around them so a, and so let me go and wrap this up it’s certainly that Maya’s selling hope there I think. Hope is big time on that. And then now we’re back to the entertainment you know that is such a lyrical piece, it is poetry well Maya was a poet and so that is poetry

Derek: yeah

Ray: And so that, you can tell I just had a bunch of fun you know just working with quotes and they go back again to that Norman Vincent Peale we’re back to the, and that quote that I was using there from is change your thought and you change your world, that’s about framing, that’s a you know that’s about using quotes as brain food to you know to help give us some courage and fortitude and to do what we need to do and

Derek: Well like I was sharing with you about the before we took on the podcast was that I think of them as gems right, so there are these so much value in this tiny little pieces of words I mean there are people who can say more in a quote than I’ve you know sometimes try to say in and entire chapter, those I think it’s important because they, because they’re so succinct they get straight to the heart of the matter so you don’t have to go through you know the whole chapter and think about and mull everything and just they get right to the heart of the issue and they could change how you think because how does that other quote go, but it says let’s see change  your thoughts change your actions, change your actions change  your habits, change your habits change your life.

Ray: Yes, yes, yes. That’s very true, it starts you know they agreed to do that and then talked about it you know how we think changes our life and before you knew obviously that they can go rich one of the bestselling probably the best selling if you will at business if you use the biggest tent you know for this is it’s really a personal development book but it’s also a good a business book. It’s probably the best; I think it sold 30 pre community copies, it’s probably the bestselling book you know they gave her a reach and the one if Derek if this was one thing, it’s you were talking about one thing before being one of your favorite books because Gary uses in the book the concept of extreme pray dough you know pray dough is a 80 play rule that we all heard for a long time and what Gary talks about which is I think one of the core concepts in the book is that you squeeze it down one more step, you take it down to the extreme pray dough, you know you take your focus down you tighten it down so that you really focus and I think that’s what quotes do, you know they squeeze out so many of the words and I think that’s you know on the jacket of the dust jacket of the one thing, we talk about how busy we are so you know we’re all just bombarded with you know thousands of pieces of information every day and so that’s one of the beauties of the quote book is if you can sit down and if you’re weary you can read a couple three pages you can yodel you can look at the table contents, are you going to back and look at the subject index to scour for a verse you can find something to speak to you and spend 2-3 minutes, 5 minutes with it or if you want to sit down and you know read you know a few pages you could do that. But it’s it is expected the word to use there, they’re gems and they’re more like diamonds, you know diamonds is what I would think about a gem probably they are little diamonds if you will

Derek: Yeah, well I got lucky; I say lucky maybe it’s a bit of a foresight but I actually went and pre ordered the book on Amazon so as soon as, as soon as it hits today I don’t know if I accidentally made a mistake, because the book actually but this is the, this is the big launch week for the book, I just happened to get a pre order copy. So Fired Up Selling comes out this week Ray where, where all I mean in addition to Amazon online where else can people find the book?

Ray: I believe its going to probably it’s discounted for you cause it’s just out but it’s a discount price and if you’re a prime member you get a free on Amazon it’s like, and so that’s the easy way you can also go to and there’s a whole bunch of other books at a lot of people are selling it online and then it’s right now I think starting this week on Tuesday it should be at the very front store of Bard’s Novel all Bard’s Novel around the country it would be at the Hudson Bookstore if you’re out travelling at the airport you can buy at the Hudson’s it will be out on display there. So it’s out in the world were gonna see, you know that’s the I’m sure like every other authors it’s been a long long time probably 30 years since I’ve authored a book, I did a few books for the New York Houses back a long time ago as an author. And so this has been a new experience although I’m really not an author for this book you know there are 268 authors in the book, the people that wrote this quotes. But you know my names not on the cover of the book cause I’m, because I’m not the author but about 2-3 months ago I figured out that nobody of us is gonna be the author of this book so I’m gonna have to step up and be the author so (laughing)

Derek: (laughing)

Ray: It was, it was really without experience that  they okay I need to get in gear and that’s not the usual, one of the things that I find that authors do they wait, way way way too long to begin to think about selling, we’re back to selling here. You know I worked with my authors starting at least a year before and sometimes 2 years before putting together a marketing sales plan and so I was guilty in here I waited really too late to you know begin to get in gear but I have a great group of sales folks that when we bring a book out we get a skip you know great distribution all over the world with it, and our sales folks they got really fired up about the book and then when they took it to Barnes and Nobles and Amazon, the other you know the people that buy books and decide whether or not a book ends up in shelves in Barnes and Noble and other places, you know they got really excited about the book and so I haven’t, there’s a lot more books out in the world than what I thought it would be. So I’m staying on my chair, edge of my chair this week till you know next Monday I guess or next Wednesday I guess how’d get books get numbers to know really how well, how well the book did .

Derek: Ah what’s that saying about the kindness and kindest one goes there for it

Ray: (laughing)

Derek: you know we do so much to others it’s hard to anybody do it for ourselves as well

Ray: You’re talking about me Derek here (laughing)

Derek: (laughing) And then what’s the new teaser you put out about the new free service that the Bard Press is gonna start offering?

Ray: Oh we started just a few weeks ago and one of the things when we were like I said we went a year with these quote judges and a lot of quote judges voted every time you know twice a week and they got, you know they just love the project, they’d love reading the quotes they’d love giving me their verdicts and so at the end you know what else can we do, you guys have been so great, you’ve been so helpful to me helping me create this book and we just learned so much beyond just which quotes to put in the book and they made it so much a better book, there were a number of quotes that I thought were just fantastic but they just bombed, it literally just gave them awful scores

Derek: (laughing)

Ray: I also learned a lot about the selling world today because we had a comment section, and we had a lot of comments so for a year we had an ongoing dialogue if with all this quote judges it was just and so one of the things that came out with that conversation at the end was I knew that people would then wanna keep you know judging this mini quotes for a long pretty time so I came up with an idea and there’s a bunch of them out there you know that they’ll send you a quote a day and quote a day services and in fact I’ve subscribed at several but I wanted to do one a little different. And so this is what and folks said yes we lobe that idea, so what I came up with, the title of this is 55 second fire up and the idea is every morning there in the week, Monday to Friday early in the morning in your mailbox we will have waiting 2 inspirational quotes and 2 humorous one liners to give a little humor and to give you a kick and to see the pants every morning and we roll that out I guess 2 or 3 weeks ago and it’s free, I mean it’s a you can think it’s a freebie when you signup they can go probably the easiest way just to Google, go Google fired up selling, or  fired up selling project, and then find the link and then there’s a signup that just you know fill in their name and email address pop it over to us and we’ll add them to the file and they’ll start getting this. And so way way back I was curious you know were back to making the promise what we’re selling whether or not we make it a promise, one of the things that we can go in and look at survey monkey and to see what’s going on, we can look at the metrics and so after I guess a week or so after I started I wanna go see whether or not people are really doing this in 55 seconds or less and they we’re, I found a lot of 41’s and 47’s and 52’s and 39’s

Derek: Yes

Ray: And some people really were going in and reading the quotes and they’re voting also you know now I edit one there’s four buttons, awful, okay, good, or great and so, and we’re I continue to have a lot of fun now collecting quotes and putting together the you know sending out to folks every morning.

Derek: That’s a treat for me cause I am, I love them, I try to in my book the Business Book Bible, I got away with this because a because I self-published, yeah I am a professional writer so I get a lot of leeway but mostly because I self-publish and nobody can tell me no. I don’t just start chapter with a quote, I start each chapter section with a quote, I don’t have people tell me that they learned more from the quote, it’s not for me it’s not everyone else kind of find an appropriate quote but they learned more sometimes from the quote that started the section than they did from anything that I actually wrote and (laughing)

Ray: Now it’s not very good for your ego is it but I mean you’re competing against you’re competing of some, it’s tough but again you’re back to the readers and so that’s one of the things I think if you probably know that and you probably that’s part of your service or part of your consulting, coaching, writing work is that you, my guess is that you probably help people you know find really good quotes to mix in to the blend and come because one of the things quotes are, we’re back to that 4 things, quotes are entertaining

Derek: Yeah

Ray: you know that’s one of the 4 things I think people do find them entertaining

Derek: I do I try at the beginning of every chapter to go find a great quote to start that chapter often and we really you know we have to write  the chapter and then edit the chapter and then go through the where we can find the quote that really sums it up, sometimes rants and quotes often fad and try to figure out what is this one this is a great quote that speaks to a theme of the book that sits at anywhere at the beginning of any of this chapters but yeah I actually I do that’s one of my little pets, a little pet add-ons that they don’t realize they’re getting  is that I love to help taking great quotes that just do something amazing to the world and then bring them into authors books to help them, to help people do what just like you know some of the readers do with my book can you sometimes get more out of that quote than they do you know 2 or 3 or 4 pages of reading the book itself.

Ray: Well I bet in this the little book that you have now has a black cover with a big red upholstery or a big exclamation point in the cover, I bet you’ll find a few good quotes in there that would go on some of your books.

Derek: Oh I already have

Ray: (laughing)

Derek: I love it

Ray: It was a shameless promotion yeah

Derek: (laughing) Oh no it’s not shameful if you don’t have anything to be ashamed of

Ray: Right, right

Derek: (laughing) Well Ray it’s been

Ray: I like your quote (laughing)

Derek: I’ll coin it but nah you know I’m sure I published a little for somebody else. But Ray this has been, this has been great. Thank you so much for taking so much of your time and you know for delivering 30 years or more worth of publishing knowledge and writing wisdom into the 30 or 40 minutes that we’ve, we’ve been on the call, I really appreciate it.

Ray: Yes Derek it’s been fun as you can see I enjoyed talking about this so it’s been, it’s been a pleasure. So a until next time, stay fired up

Derek: Fired up (crosstalk)

Ray: Good day